Diskusyón:La Primera Hoja
Edit on OF version[trocar el manadero]
@Marrovi: Are you sure you have this right? I'm pretty sure the spelling in the French orthography is Judéo-espagnol (or at least Judeo-espagnol), not -español). StevenJ81 (discusión) • 21 Av 5776 • 15:59 25 Ago 2016 (UTC)
- @Universal Life and Maor X: I really need your help. I have no idea whether the edits that User:Marrovi is making to the OF version of La Primera Oja reflect OF orthography. Thanks. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 22 Av 5776 • 02:47 26 Ago 2016 (UTC)
- @Marrovi and StevenJ81:Dear Marrovi and Stephen, unlike the AY and the United Orthography, there is no fixed French orthography for Judaeo-Spanish. The same word could be spelled with a "c", "k" or "qu". On the one end of the spectrum, there's a tendency to write the language as if it was French ("ou" instead of "u", "é" instead of "e" etc.) and on the other hand there are JS-adapted versions of it (where "u" is used instead of "ou" and "e" instead of "é"). The first one is found to be used more in personal letters etc. and the second is used more officially such as in books, journals. Moreover one of the institutions adapting the French style is Vidas Largas; they use "u" and "e", on top of it they use "k" systematically to overcome ambuiguity to when use "c", when "k" and when "qu". However within all this variety, there are several rules that everyone within the range of this French-style spectrum follows naturally, such as the English or Spanish "ch" is ALWAYS given by "tch" and English "sh" is ALWAYS given by "ch". Thus "Dexar/Deshar" is spelled Dechar, "Muncho" is spelled Muntcho or Mountcho. The Aki-Yerushalayim "dj" is also ALWAYS given by "dj", in fact AY has copied it from French Orthography (which is way much older than AY). Also, the Spanish "ñ" is given ALWAYS with "gn". Thus Judaeo-Spanish is written Judeo-Espagnol or Judéo-Espagnol.
- I'd said that (especially writing the sound of /k/) there are no fixed rules, however there's a logic that most native speakers follow: The words such as "cuatro" and "cuando" is spelled usually as quatro and quando as in French they are "quattre" and "quand" respectively. Etymologically Latin "c" has turned into "ch" in French, whereas it has stayed as "c" (/k/) in Spanish and most speakers are "unknowingly" aware of it. Thus they spell caro for French "chère", camino for "chemin" etc. When it comes to words that don't have an etymological equivalent in French, there starts the ambiguity...such as the word "con" which is "avec" in French. I've seen that word written as both quon, kon and con in French orthography...this is when most of the people hesitate in writing and they copy what they've seen the most. I could've said also hesitated as this ambuguity exists in French orthography since the 1850s. The thing is Vidas Largas adopted an all-around solution using only "k"..the problem is that most people, even if they adapt Vidas Largas style, they will still write quando, quatro, quinze. Thus some people choose the middle-ground and use only "k" when French equivalents do not exist...thus erases ambiguity.
- That was for the half-ambigous part, back to the part where rules apply: the cedilla. The letter "c" with cedilla, ç is used in French only before the front vowels (a, o, u) and never before (e, i). Thus French in French is Français pronounced [Fransé]], the cedilla is there so that it wouldn't get pronounced as [Franké]. However when the same root precedes "e", such as the country France, there's no need and use of the cedilla...as the pronunciation is clear. The same applies in JS with French Orthography. So the cedilla in Françes is an hypercorrection, trying to make it look like Français. I hope it helps :) --Universal Life (discusión) 09:59 27 Ago 2016 (UTC)
- Few more stuff;
- I think, about /k/ we could also adapt the middle-ground policy where we use "c" or "q" where there's a French equivalent and where there's none, we use "k". Wikipedia even in French WP is spelled as Wikipédia (wiki being an Hawaian word), there's no single reason to spell it as Wiquipedia.
- We should also adapt what most books and journals use such as using "u" and not "ou" and "e" and not "é" etc. I've been using this until now, too bad we don't have a large number of editors where we could simply go for a consensus.
- I'm going to revert most of the edits of Marrovi that I found contrary to the FO-style and I mentioned above. However some of them, such as Turco instead of Turko, ancyclopedia instead of ancyclopedya etc. are good edits, as French Turc and encyclopédie etc.
- There's one fact that I've repeated so many times to so many people, the word hazer (Modern Sp. hacer) is not pronounced in JS with an /s/ sound but /z/...So many people mistakenly write haçer or açer thinking that it would reflect Old Spanish (they take reference the Modern Sp.)...No, no, no even in Old Spanish it was hazer and in Judaeo-Spanish it's hazer (AY: azer, FO: azer not açer). In Haketia, this verb is pronounced as /hazzer/ (yes with an "h" sound in most dialects) (/ké hizzítes mi wuéno/). And in Saloniki JS, it's pronounced as /fazer/. (/Ké fizítes Salamó!?/)
- Of course I will revert munxas back into muntchas as even when we think that "x" reflects "sh", the word muntchas is not pronounced with it. (And in FO: x="ks" or "gz", which has also been copied by AY)
- Lingua not Lengua....and vosos puedej or vosos puedech but NEVER vosos pueden, pueden is the conjugation of eyos (or usteded in MS, which is the reason of confusion of Marrovi in the first place...South American Spanish!) Although I'm thinkng of changing vosos into vosotros as Vosotros is "you (pl.)" and Vosos is like "you (pl.) guys" or "you (pl) people". I had thought it's encouring, it is but it's also quite informal. --Universal Life (discusión) 10:45 27 Ago 2016 (UTC)
Edit on מרובע version[trocar el manadero]
I think any Wiki Main Page should be flawless, so here's what I found.
- Main paragraph is significantly different from OU, AY, OF and OT - my guess would be that all versions should be the same. This paragraph is not only different but it also has a weird first sentence, which I transcribe: Vikipedya: Venidos buenos a la Vikipedya en espanyol, la version en djudeo-espanyol de la Vikipedya. I think we should discuss changing it.
- Letter דֿ /ð/ is, to the best of my knowledge, not really used. I have consulted several sources - including Me'am Lo'ez (1730) and the Alice in Wonderland Perez translation (2016) - and I did not find any instances of it. For example, 'קאדֿה' (kada), in all the sources I have consulted, is always written 'קאדה'; same with 'גֿודֿיו' and 'בֿינידֿוס'. The letter ד represents /d~ð/ sounds, at least in traditional Hebrew orthography. If someone has a reliable source where דֿ is found then I would love to take a look.
- It seems I have no way to edit the main box (or at least I don't know how); instead I am listing the errors so an authorized user can correct them. Maybe you can help me out, StevenJ81?
- Welcome message says 'בֿינידֿוס בוינוס א לה בֿיקיפידייה.' Correct way is 'בֿינידוס בואינוס אה לה בֿיקיפידייה.' This is repeated on the 'בֿינידֿוס בוינוס' star button.
- Subtitle says 'קי קאדֿה אונו פוידֿי טרוקאר אי אמיזֿוראר.' Correct way is 'קי קאדה אונו פואידי טרוקאר אי אמיזֿוראר'.
- Here's an important Hebrew orthography rule contributors should have in mind, since it is an error I have already encountered several times: 'oe', 'ue', 'ui', 'oi' dipthongs are spelled ואי, not וי i.e. איספֿואיגרה (esfuegra) and קואינסידינסייה (koinsidensia). -- Ezrasarano (discusión) 13:56 19 Abr 2017 (UTC)
- By design, main pages are usually fully protected (because they'd otherwise be vandalized by passing IP contributors). So I'll edit things along the lines you outline here over the next little bit.
- Universal Life's rules weren't clear for me on diphthongs. Thank you for the clarification. Ditto on the monosyllable "a".
- On the whole, I agree that things should be identical on all versions. I think there's an extra sentence on the OU version that points to an "Orthography for Spanish speakers page"; I'm ok with differences like that. That said, I mostly inherited these pages, and haven't gone to edit them carefully, so I'm glad to have educated and authoritative corrections to make.
- I do know that while the top of each of these pages is in a different orthography, the navbox below (the big blue box that says "אנסיקלאפידײה • Ansiklopedya") is only in one Latin orthography (AY) along with Hebrew orthography. Let's leave that as it is, at least for now.
- Ezra, please sign comments (here and on your own talk page) with four tildes, so we get name, date and time stamps on them. Thanks. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 23 Nissán 5777 • 16:00 19 Abr 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for the edits, Steve. Could you make one more edit at the bottom of navbox, whenever you get the chance: גֿודיו-איספאנײולה (djudeo-espanyola) for גֿודיאו-איספאנײולה. I think it's interesting to point out that two other important and related words, גֿודיאה/גֿודייו (djudio/djudia), each have a different spelling. -- Ezrasarano (discusión) • 23 Nissan 5777 • 21:32 19 Abr 2017 (UTC)
- Hey Steven and Ezrasano, I wish I had seen this conversation earlier.
- About the diphtongs, Ezrasano is right. And there are a lot of mistakes around.
- About the daled with rafe however, the rule is according to the pronunciation and that whenever the daled is pronounced soft, it should bear the rafe. Coming to why some old publications don't have it, the answer is simple. In Western JS there is no sound of soft "d", just like in Portuguese, "cada" is pronounced with a harsh "d", "madre" is pronounced /madri/ (the same goes for "g", that's why colloquially their accent is called as "digi-digi"). So any author who speaks with a harsh "d" will never use "rafe" on daled.
- On the other hand, if you want to see reliable sources using daled with rafe, check El Buen Dotrino by Yehezkel Gabbay published at 1861 in Galata, Istanbul. Also you can see Kanun Name de Penas (Penal Code Lawbook of 1860). For lighter subject Las Aguas Amargas by Victor Levy (1889) :) and many more...All these books use the rafe on daled fully!
- These rules are not things I made up you know, its basis is entirely phonetic...That's why both אילייה and איה are correct in the Hebrew spelling...and you will find so much variations according to different dialects :) --Universal Life (discusión) 23:16 5 Ago 2017 (UTC)
- @Ezrasarano and Universal Life: One other reason, I suspect, is that in modern Hebrew, ד and דֿ—or to use a more common orthography for Hebrew, דּ (with dagesh) and ד (without)—have merged to a single sound. (I suspect that fewer people today separate the daled sounds than is true for any of the other five בג״ד כפ״ת letters, even gimel.) So in many cases, many younger people wouldn't necessarily know where to put a rafe on a daled, even if their JS is not a Western JS.
- UL, you should make sure all the daleds are now correctly marked, at least on the front page(s). StevenJ81 (discusión) • 15 Av 5777 • 16:03 7 Ago 2017 (UTC)
"Merubba"[trocar el manadero]
I'm thinking this ought to be "Ebreo", "Ivrit" or "Alef-bet", not "Merubba". Truth is that the fact that it is merubba, rather than something like Rashi script, is more a function of the relative availability of square scripts and round scripts—and the fact that plenty of people who can read alef-bet can't read Rashi script. And a lot of people don't know that merubba (square) in this setting refers to the typeface. The important piece of this particular version is that it is in alef-bet, not Latin. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 16 Av 5777 • 14:57 8 Ago 2017 (UTC)