Messaje de Usador:Universal Life

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Request for some translation/etc. help[trocar el manadero]

Greetings, Universal Life. I don't know that we've met before, but I worked with Maor X on a couple of things here in the past, in particular:

  • Shabat, which he translated from my GA at simplewiki
  • Xablón:User SUL Box, which together we neatly made into a box that not only appears in Djudeo-espanyol but also in both Latin and Hebrew alef-bets.

I wrote Maor the following about ten days ago. But I've heard nothing, and he's been here more sporadically than you have. So I thought I'd ask for your help and see what happens. Please see the request I pasted in below. Many thanks. (PS: I did a little cleaning up of some administrative pages recently: Vikipedya:Administradores, and archiving from the administrator nominations page. See my contributions page for details. I ran these by a steward, who thought they looked ok.) StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:45 14 Juñ 2015 (UTC)

begin paste

Hi, Maor X. Long time, no talk-to.

I have been playing around with a couple of additional templates, which I thought ought to be included here, even if this is a pretty quiet wiki. I'm going to point you to the Hebrew language versions, but they will have interwiki links to all other versions.

he:משתמש:StevenJ81/בסד
he:תבנית:פרטי היום

With respect to this latter template:
  • I'm sure we can't* manage the parshat hashavua or sefira count here, because there is substantial infrastructure in place at hewiki that makes that feasible
  • We can put a Hebrew date. We can make it advance with the secular date at midnight, local wiki time (=UTC). We can make it advance at 6 pm local wiki time (as a surrogate for sundown). And we can even make those two a toggling option.
    — We won't be able* to make the Hebrew date advance at local sundown, like the hewiki version does, because of the same infrastructure issue.
    — We could offer a time offset option, somewhat the way the enwiki version does. But we can't* really make it automatically work according to established daylight savings time rules around the world, again because at enwiki that depends on an already-existing infrastructure that doesn't exist here
    — The days of the week and months of the Hebrew calendar year that this wiki produces using parser functions can be found here. If you would want the Hebrew dates to look different, let's discuss.
asterisk—not that it's impossible, only that it's surely not worth the effort. I certainly don't have time to do it.

I also thought the home page template Xablón:Primera hoja muevo títolo ought to have the Hebrew date as well as the secular date. I can show you how to do this if you don't know how.

Thanks, and שבת שלום. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:03 5 Juñ 2015 (UTC)

end paste StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:45 14 Juñ 2015 (UTC)

Repuesta tadre / Late reply[trocar el manadero]

Venido bueno Steven / Welcome Steven

En primero quero dezir que me alegrì muncho de verte aquí en la Vikipedya Judeo-Española. Yay muncho tiempo que dingunos hazen un esforço parâ amijorarla.

Fisrt of all, I want to say that I'm very happy to see you in the Judaeo-Spanish Wikipedia. Since a while, almost nobody was giving any effort to better it.

Escúsame muncho parâ la tadre repuesta mía, estava muy muy ocupado en mis tiempos d'alcavo. Y munchas gracias parâ ajustar el Kalendario Ebreo a la Primera Hoja.

I'm very sorry about my late reply, I was extremely busy lately. And thank you very much for adding the Hebrew Calender on the Main Page.

Yo conoçco a Maor X de cara en cara. Penso que y él no estuvo muy aktivo en la Vikipedya en los tiempos d'alcavo. Estávamos lavorando con él enjuntos en unos projetos ma daínda no se escaparon. Io estuve mas aktivo por d'alcavo (cuando topì tiempo) en el projeto del Viksionario Judeo-Español. Penso que un Viksioner es muy importante como un ayudante léksiko a la Vikipedya.

I know Maor X personally. I think he hasn't been very active neither lately in the Vikipedya. We were working together on some projects but they didn't finish yet. I have been more active lately (when I could find time) in the project of the Judaeo-Spanish Wiktionary. I think that a Wiktionary is an important lexical help for the Wikipedia.

Penso que es importante que tengamos dar y aver de oy endelantre, parâ desvelopar y amijorar y la Vikipedya y el Viksioner. Te quero de muevo rengraciar por todos tus kontribüsyones.

I think it's important that we stay in touch from now on, in order to develop and better both the Wikipedia and the Wiktionary. I want to thank you again for all your contributions.

Buenas noches y al vermos / Good night and see you :) --Universal Life (discusión) 23:43 20 Jul 2015 (UTC)

@Universal Life and Maor X: I am delighted to see you both back—and both today, as it happens.
As you see from my user page, I don't really speak Judaeo-Español, and just barely (kinda/sorta) can figure out what I'm reading. On this round of visiting this wiki, I came to build a calendar template ({{Oy}}). I then decided to add the Hebrew date to the home page, as you saw; in that case, once you two didn't respond, I had a Steward temporarily unlock the page for me. And then, finally, I decided that I didn't like the fact that most of the articles written in Hebrew alef-bet were nevertheless left-justified, so I wanted to fix them. But over the course of starting to scan those articles, I ran into some inappropriate content. So I decided to ask Stewards for the admin tools on a temporary basis so that I could clean up as I went along. So that's where we are right now.
So far,
  1. I right-justified all the Hebrew-script pages, and fitted them with the tabs you created for the home page so that it would be easy to shift back and forth between twinned articles.
  2. I did the same for twinned templates and twinned categories. In the case of categories, if a category had only one entry, and its twin also had only one entry, I deleted both. If there were three entries between them, I merged them. If there were three entries each, I kept both. I won't be insulted if you undo any of this, but I thought that would be appropriate.
  3. I created a couple of subst:-able templates to speed the process ({{TabsH}} and {{TabsL}}; {{RTL top}} and {{RTL bottom}}), but if one of you were willing to write documentation for them it would be great
I mostly can't edit directly in Judaeo-Español, so I've found a couple of other useful things to do:
  • I'm going through pages without interlanguage links and trying to find matches. I'm at the end of the G's so far.
  • I am told that we get random access from Wikidata on July 29. Someone over there has told me how to get the wikidata-driven iw links onto the Hebrew-script pages, even where the Latin-script page is the one in wikidata. So after July 29 I'll work on that.
Since I don't speak the language, I probably shouldn't be a permanent administrator here. If you will be back around a little more regularly I will be glad to step down after my three months if you wish. If it would be helpful for you if I kept the tools, then based on your judgment I would be fine with that. And in any event please feel free to add {{Usador Administrador}} to your user pages (and fix the language) if you like. And that's all the news for now. StevenJ81 (discusión) 02:31 21 Jul 2015 (UTC)

A couple of additional questions[trocar el manadero]

  1. Someone recently asked me about this alphabet-converter system used on some other wikis (like Kazakh and Serbian). It seems you looked into this at one point, and were told that the demand is not high enough. Do I have that right? In principle, I would want to do it anyway, because a Hebrew-script Judeo-Spanish is really more authentic and definitive than any Latin-script transcription. But in the execution of it, even if we could get the powers that be to install it here, I'm not sure how we'd use it:
    • Which Latin transcription would we use? Or would we give a choice of all of them (four on the current home page)?
    • How in the world do you do vowels? It just feels like there is far too much variation on vowels to make it work.
    • It would probably break down on Hebrew/Aramaic-derived vocabulary that is written traditionally (like Shabat > שבת, and not שאבאט).
    Any further thoughts?
  2. Do you have any idea whom I ought to talk to about having the bidi buttons added to the editing boxes here? See yiwiki, which I think invented them, or Wikidata or Meta, where they are currently in use. These would be massively useful here, and might well make it easier for people to write Hebrew-script articles. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:17 22 Jul 2015 (UTC)

@StevenJ81, sorry for the delay again, real life events have been keeping me really busy...Coming back to the topic, I've lots to say, so I need to go point-by-point.--Universal Life (discusión) 11:20 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Universal Life, it's not a problem at all. Having you here sometimes to help, or at least to consult with, is extremely helpful to me. For example: I tried very, very hard to find online resources to support the calendar issue. I had a hard time finding very much, to be honest with you. So just having you here for me to consult with is enormously helpful.
I understand not necessarily being able to spend a lot of time. I spend too much, probably, as it is. I'll be honest: if you can just check for questions from me once a week, for 10-15 minutes, it would save me a ton of time, too. I'll respond to some other issues point by point below. (This week might take more than 15 minutes, but I'll try to keep it down after this.) StevenJ81 (discusión) 13:53 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Steven :) It's true that there aren't many sources online...But if you have the chance to visit the Hebrew University Library in Jerusalem. There, there are many many resources. Whenever there's any info you're looking for, you can also just ask me, I'll try to do my best :) Actually, we can do better, in order to communicate much more easily, I think it would be nice to speak through email or facebook, what do you think? --Universal Life (discusión) 06:47 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
First, thank you for the very comprehensive responses below!
If I am not in Israel sooner, I will be there in 2017: my son is an עולה חדש and will be married then. (He is at Technion now.)
E-mail is a great idea. (I don`t use Facebook. If I did, you`d probably never see me again. I spend too much time here as it is.:) ) Write me here. And I use WhatsApp, also, so on email we can sort that out. StevenJ81 (discusión) 15:36 2 Set 2015 (UTC)

Hebrew calender/Oy[trocar el manadero]

I want to start with the calender. Thank you very much for the {{Oy}} template and the Hebrew dates. I'm very slow with templates, so I need to tell you some little details/little mistakes that we need to change. The traditional Judaeo-Spanish speaking Sephardic community's Hebrew calender format is not exactly the same with the one used in Israel. And similarly the Sephardic pronunciation of the months is not the same as in Modern Hebrew (just like Yiddish). The Hebrew/Aramaic names of the months in Judaeo-Spanish are as follows:

Ebreo (OU) Ebreo (AY) Aramí (OU) Aramí (AY) Span
Nissán Nisan Nissannu Nisanu March-April
Iyyar Iyar Ayaru Ayaru April-May
Siván Sivan Simanu Simanu May-June
Tammuz Tamuz Du'uzu Duuzu June-July
Av Av Abu Abu July-August
Elul Elul Ululu Ululu August-September
Tishrí Tishri Tashretu Tashretu September-October
Marḥeshván Marheshvan Arakshamma Arakshama October-November
Kislev Kislev Kislimu Kislimu November-December
Teveth Teved Tabetu Tabetu December-January
Shevat Shevat Shabatu Shabatu January-February
Adhar Adar Addaru Adaru February-March

I think that the Aramaic names were reserved in some specific use in the religious circles, so I don't think it's necessary to add to the Wikipedia, though I wouldn't oppose. In all the journals published, mostly, there were four calenders called:

  • The main one (Hebrew calender) - on top and under it:
  • A la Grega (on the left)
  • A la Turca (in the middle)
  • A la Franca (on the right, the Modern Gregorian calender)

A la Turca was the Muslim calender used as Sephardim lived in the Ottoman Empire. Both a la Turca and a la Grega is not used anymore in the Judaeo-Spanish speaking communities. So if we wanted to name the two other calenders we use, we could call them a la Franca and a la Ebrea.

Lastly, about the calender format in the Hebrew script, using the transcription of the Latin calenders (לוניס 27 גֿולייו 2015 - 11 אב 5775) is more proper than using (יום שני כ"ז בגֿוליו 2015 - י"א באב 5775). I don't know how to change it, so may be you could help me with it :) --Universal Life (discusión) 11:20 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

OK. This is really, really helpful. Let me respond on a couple of things. (You may want to keep a copy of my sandbox open in another tab):
  1. It's easy enough to move the table you created above to the article Kalendario ebreo.
  2. For both the {{Oy}} template and for other purposes, better to use versions of Marheshvan than Heshvan? It's a question I needed to deal with at Latin Wikipedia, where most sources are classical and therefore use Marchesuan. It's also, oddly enough, a question I've dealt with at English Wikipedia, because while Marheshvan is more formally correct, Heshvan is more commonly used in the Anglophone community.
    For the here and now, I'd probably use a version of Heshvan in the {{Oy}} template, Marheshvan in the home page templates, but do something like Marcheshvan (Heshvan) in tables like the one above. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
    I checked some old Ladino dictionaries and they prefer Ḥeshván. I think both are used in the Jewish community in Turkey, however Ḥeshván is much more popular. So, I think we should use Ḥeshván in the template and the main page. --Universal Life (discusión) 07:00 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
  3. Related to the previous question: There is now a parser function ({{#time: ...}}) that can return a Hebrew date, given the right parameters. It's easy to go change the outputs of these if we want. So the question is: for months of the year (Gregorian and Hebrew) and days of the week, what values should the server return in this wiki? (It would probably return the same in other lad projects, I'll add.)
    • The current values are the ones returned here in my sandbox. Do you think that I should replace these with the OU versions in the table above? The AY versions? Something else? It's also possible to make them come out like Marḥeshván/מרחשון, which is what the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia does with Latin and Cyrillic.
      I think the best would be if you can use the OU versions in the table (except for the Marheshvan which should be Ḥeshván). One thing I saw that I need to correct is that, the word oy (today) isn't spelled הויי in Hebrew but spelled אויי :) --Universal Life (discusión) 07:07 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
  4. For the home pages:
    • Right now, the AY version of the page uses a completely AY transcription for dates, based on an AY calendar I found on line. The other three Latin-script transcriptions use what the server returns, which I gather was based on OU. Can you create a list of names of days of the week and months of the year (both calendars) for OF and OT? If so, I can easily make those versions of the home page look correct.
      I'm going to create a list now below. --Universal Life (discusión) 07:55 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
    • For Hebrew script, see here in sandbox for how I thought to transcribe days of the week into Hebrew. But I couldn't find a confirming source, so I left them in pure Hebrew for now. If you tell me those are correct, I'll go ahead and change those. For months, based on an AY calendar I found, I used as follows: {{#switch:{{#time:n}}|1=אינירו|2=פֿיבֿרירו|3=מארסו|4=אבֿריל|5=מאייו|6=גֿוניו|7=גֿוליו|8=אוגוסטו|9=סיפּטימברי|10=אוקטוברי|11=נובֿימברי|12=דיסימברי}}. Again, don't worry about the template markup; just let me know that the month names are ok and I will fix.
      I created a table including all (main) forms, so you can use them to check and correct if necessary :) --Universal Life (discusión) 09:45 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
  5. I'd guess that a la Grega was probably the Julian calendar, BTW. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:24 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)
OK. Thank you for the lists. I will work on this, along the lines you have suggested. (At the article Kalendario ebreo, I will include both short- and long-versions of Ḥeshván/Marḥeshván. If we ever write an article on Ḥeshván, we will also need to include both forms. Everywhere else, I will use the short form.) And I will fix my Hoy, oy, oy template! StevenJ81 (discusión) 15:41 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
The download I found from ANL had different OE from yours (see just above), but also different AY from yours (see by your table down at the bottom). Any thoughts, especially about AY? StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:03 2 Set 2015 (UTC)

Articles written with Hebrew characters[trocar el manadero]

The original orthography for printed Judaeo-Spanish (JS) has always been the Rashi script. All newspapers and books were printed in this version of Hebrew letters until late 19th century. Usage of square Hebrew letters (called Merubbá') was reserved to titles (of books, chapters etc.) only. Today most users of Merubbá' for an entire text of JS, are descendents of Sephardim living in modern Israel. Many also know the original Rashi version of the Hebrew alphabet. Me and MaorX, we have been wanting a long time to use Rashi in the Ladino WP. However, as Rashi doesn't have its own set of chacters in the Unicode, and is only one of the fonts of Hebrew Unicode it becomes very difficult to implement this task. Perhaps, if the font for the Hebrew articles is set to Rashi, then all readers could read Hebrew-charactered articles in the Rashi script. I don't know how to do this.

Secondly, I cordially want to thank and congratulate you for performing the huge task of right-justifying all Hebrew-script pages, dealing with tabs and categories on a number of repeating pages!! :))) (And I appreciate much the interlanguage links as well;) )

And lastly, could you explain me subst:-able templates that you created and their usages. Thanks --Universal Life (discusión) 11:59 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Rashi script. Let me throw out a couple of questions.
  1. Is there an open source Rashi script font out there? If not, just forget this entirely, because using a non-open-source font on this project (as a default font) won't be allowed.
    If so, tell me what it is, and we can try a test on a Hebrew-script page or two to see if it works. (Part of the issue with this, though, is that one's browser would have to be set to allow the page to provide its own fonts. Most people's browsers work that way by default, but if your browser isn't set that way, it will always fill in its own default Hebrew fonts, and you'll never see if the test works.) But: you don't want a situation where this depends entirely on browser-side fonts, where if people don't have the right font installed they'll see nothing but boxes. That wouldn't be a good thing.
    There may be some more involved approaches using code pages, but I don't know that stuff so well myself.
    Inserted at 20:20 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)
    I found an open-source Rashi font at opensiddur.org. However, in order for this to work optimally here, we would need that font to be served from our project server. How we get that done, whether or not we can get that done, etc., is far beyond what I know. I have a list of things I want to do here that I'm compiling in my sandbox, and I'll add that. But I'm not sure whom to ask. Do you have any idea? (And this doesn't take away my question in the next paragraph.) StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:20 27 Jul 2015 (UTC) (end insertion)
  2. However: think again about whether using Rashi script as default here is really the best choice for this project. I fully appreciate that Rashi script is the traditional one to use, and fluent speakers of JS will know how to read it. But JS speakers do know how to read meruba fonts, and keeping the default font as a meruba font could make the project that much more accessible to that many more people. (And see above: if most strangers will see nothing but empty boxes because they don't have the right fonts installed, you don't want that as a default.) I think you and Maor X need to decide that; I'll help you as I can.
Right-justifying: Glad to help. (;-)
Templates: Here's how the subst:-able templates work. They're just shortcuts for things that would need to be done on many pages:
  • {{subst:TabsL|Name|שם}} is used on the Latin-script page and puts the following on the page:

{{arriva}}
{{P1|Name}}
{{P2|שם}}
{{abaxo}}

  • {{subst:TabsH|Name|שם}} is used on the Hebrew-script page and puts the following on the page:

{{arriva}}
{{P2|Name}}
{{P1|שם}}
{{abaxo}}

  • The versions {{TabsLXK}} and {{TabsHXK}} are used on template and category pages in a similar way.
  • {{subst:RTL top}} on a Hebrew-script page creates an html <div> with right-to-left text, right-justified, with a fixed right margin. {{subst:RTL bottom}} just closes that <div>. {{subst:RTL TOC}} tries to add in a properly-aligned table of contents in articles long enough to need one. I couldn't get the TOC to entirely right-justify, but the resulting TOC is at least neat and in the right place. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:07 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Adminship and tools[trocar el manadero]

First of all, I think that the Ladino WP is very happy to have you as an admin. You've been helping a lot. You're helping to develop the WP. Therefore I don't see any objection of you being an administrator for now. I think that the issue of permanent or temporary is not very important neither. So please don't feel any pressure on stepping down. And about Judaeo-Spanish, I could help you learn it, if you would like :) --Universal Life (discusión) 12:10 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

The only issue to temporary vs. permanent is that for temporary I have to post a notice here every three months, and then go to the stewards at Meta-Wiki and get them to renew my tools. So if you are inviting me to become permanent, then I'd ask you to go to Vikipedya:Kandidaturas a Administrador and nominate me to be a permanent Administrator (and, I guess, Bureaucrat, since that seems to be the way things work on this wiki). This nomination would have to run seven days, I guess, and as long as we don't get objections, then I would become permanent.
I would never be comfortable writing a nomination for myself for permanent status, since I can't write in JS. But you could do that, and you could say in the nomination that I'm helping and improving the wiki, so you would support me even though I don't speak JS. (And yes, I'd love to learn it, but that's a discussion for another time.:) ) StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:13 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)
I nominated you as admin :) --Universal Life (discusión) 10:13 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. I even understood what you wrote (more or less). :) How do I reply there, "I accept the nomination. Thank you."?
I don't think many people are watching that page, though. I know that after 15 days, with one positive vote and no negative, you are allowed to promote me (and have the tools to do that). While I don't want to put extra work on you, if there are a handful of contributors here you would feel comfortable asking to participate, I'd feel better if there were at least a handful of !votes there. תודה! StevenJ81 (discusión) 15:50 2 Set 2015 (UTC)

Wikidata / Bidi buttons?[trocar el manadero]

I'm sorry but I couldn't understand these very much:

  • I am told that we get arbitrary access from Wikidata on July 29 August 3. Someone over there has told me how to get the wikidata-driven iw links onto the Hebrew-script pages, even where the Latin-script page is the one in wikidata. So after July 29 August 3 I'll work on that.
  • Do you have any idea whom I ought to talk to about having the bidi buttons added to the editing boxes here? See yiwiki, which I think invented them, or Wikidata or Meta, where they are currently in use. These would be massively useful here, and might well make it easier for people to write Hebrew-script articles.

What are bidi buttons? What's yiwiki? --Universal Life (discusión) 12:16 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Oh, did you mean yi.wikipedia, the Yiddish Wikipedia? --Universal Life (discusión) 12:18 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)
  1. The way Wikidata works, only one article from each wiki can be connected directly to each data item. So, for example, the Wikidata item for Spain (d:Q29) connects only to lad:Espanya, but not to lad:איספאנײה. In turn, lad:Espanya shows the whole range of interwiki links included from the Wikidata item, but lad:איספאנײה only shows whatever interwiki links are incorporated manually. What this arbitrary access thing would do (I hope) is allow us to easily incorporate the entire list of interwiki links even on lad:איספאנײה. It doesn't change things in the other direction, but that's not as important. If you click on the "Ladino" iw link from anywhere else, you'd still get only to lad:Espanya directly, but then we have a tab at the top of that page to get you to lad:איספאנײה pretty easily. But this way, if you were sitting on lad:איספאנײה, you'd have the whole list of iwlinks right there.
  2. There is a gadget on Yiddish Wikipedia called (in English) "Directional editing control script (authors Brion and Splarka)".‎ Turn that gadget on. Then go to any page on Yiddish Wikipedia and edit it. You'll get buttons at the top controlling whether the editing box is ltr or rtl. I've found that really useful for doing template work. For a wiki like this, where there are both ltr pages and rtl pages, it would be incredibly helpful to have this. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:24 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)
Update:
  1. Using Wikidata arbitrary access and a Lua module donated by a user (d:User:Innocent bystander), we are now able to show the whole range of available interwiki links on both the Latin-script and Hebrew-script version of paired pages. I have not fully implemented this as of now, but you can see examples at Astronomiya and Abruzzo and their paired pages.
    My intention is to modify things at Wikidata so that the Wikidata item always points directly to the Latin-script page, while we will use the module to create the links on the Hebrew-script page. Since Judeo-Spanish is originally a Hebrew-script language, that's a little backwards, unfortunately. But since the great majority of pages here are written in Latin script, I thought that approach would be better for consistency. If you'd like me to do this the other way around, let me know.
  2. I have installed two gadgets in this Wiki. See Especial:Instrumenticos. One is "HotCat", which is widely available across projects, so you probably know it. The other is a BiDi editing gadget that was invented at Yiddish Wikipedia and is now also installed at Meta-Wiki and Wikidata.
    For this one, go to Especial:Preferencias#mw-prefsection-gadgets and turn that gadget on. Then, go to any page and start editing. You will see five gray buttons at the top of the editing box: [Default], [dir=ltr], [dir=rtl], [bidi=normal], [bidi=override]. These buttons let you set the directionality of the editing box. So, for example, if you want to write a Hebrew-script article, you press the "dir=rtl" button, and then the editing box becomes a rtl editing box, the same as on Hebrew and Yiddish Wikipedias. In a wiki like this, where people write in both directions, I thought this gadget would be really valuable to include.
    It would probably be good to have proper Judeo-Spanish documentation for these. That's beyond my language skills.
StevenJ81 (discusión) 18:42 13 Ago 2015 (UTC)
Steven, I want to communicate with you, as soon as I can. I couldn't even finish my first reply. Have a nice "semanada" :) --Universal Life (discusión) 19:31 16 Ago 2015 (UTC)
Wow, I did those preference settings and it's great! Thank you so much :) --Universal Life (discusión) 10:21 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to add one more: an automatic link on the top menu to one's sandbox. On eswiki, sandbox is "Taller". What would you call a sandbox here? StevenJ81 (discusión) 15:53 2 Set 2015 (UTC)

Alphabet/Orthography Conversion[trocar el manadero]

Hi Steven, before I will reply to the the above conversations, I wanted to continue by finishing my last reply, which I hadn't been able to finish...There were 3 more topics I needed to speak about, one of which is the problem of orthography conversion.

In 2011, I was in the Wikimania in Haifa and I'd proposed a conversion, just like the Serbian WP. They had asked me to develop bi-directional conversion rules, I'd worked on it, however I don't think it's possible. "Ortoģrafía Unida" and "Ortoģrafía Ebrea" are at the two opposing edges of the spectrum, the rest are so phonetic that they could easily be bi-directionally converted with simple rules. As Ortoģrafía Unida is a multidialectal and comparatively deeper orthography, all other orthographies can be easily converted from it. However articles written in other orthographies unfortunately can't always be easily converted to it on an automatic format, as this script takes into consideration (just like the Hebrew Ort.) whether the word is Hebrew/Aramaic in origin. And again unfortunately, no other orthography can't be converted automatically from the Hebrew one. די could be easily "de" and "di".

In spite of all these difficulties, manual conversion is always feasible and I would like very much to have a Serbian WP-like tool in our Vikipedya :) What should we do in order to achieve that? --Universal Life (discusión) 19:56 1 Set 2015 (UTC)

With respect to Latin orthography, I guess part of the question is how much we should or can push one point of view. I'm personally a fan of an approach like OU, because it better preserves the spelling of the original, parent language (usually medieval or early modern Spanish in this case, but sometimes other languages like Turkish). However: it feels like the approach with the strongest base of institutional support is AY, because of its support by Autoridad Nasionala del Ladino. In principle, we should poll "the community" and ask what they want. But "the community" hardly exists right now, so that's not really a feasible approach. :( And to be fair, this is a small wiki; we should encourage participation, and if people want to contribute in AY or OF, I'm not sure we should discourage that.
The form that "real" JS speakers all understand, we presume, is "Ortoģrafía Ebrea". It's unambiguous and more authentic. But there are ZERO articles on this wiki written only in OE. And there are also ZERO articles where in the Latin-Hebrew pair the Hebrew version is more complete.
So here's what I would suggest. Our tool needs to be able to convert all other orthographies TO "Ortoģrafía Ebrea". It does not need to go in the other direction, and it does not need to convert between Latin orthographies ... because everyone can read OE, we presume. The standard for writing on this wiki will be "any" of the Latin orthographies, not OE. (If someone actually writes in OE, we'll convert it to something else, and then let the tool convert it back.) If someone only understands Latin orthography, they'll have to do their best, like they do now. More below... StevenJ81 (discusión) 01:52 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
One question, though: Can a tool get most Hebrew/Aramaic words right going TO OE? Shabat/Shabbat needs to go to שבת and not שאבאט. Maybe words like that need a special template, call it "zzz", so that {{zzz|Shabat|שבת}} shows "Shabat" in (whatever) Latin orthography, but overrides the rules of the tool to show שבת in OE. StevenJ81 (discusión) 02:22 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
I have to mention that ANL has nowhere near the power that RAE has for example. Its name even is grammatically wrong: words ending in -al in Judaeo-Spanish never have a feminine version in -ala...That would be Modern Spanish. That's; nasyonal is both masculine and feminine, there is no "nasyonala". And Ladino is more of an exonym than endonym for the language. It's like if they made a centre for the English language and called it: "Nacional Authority of Anglais". Its a centre, but not a language academy or institution in its true sense. Just as its name is more Castilian (modern Spanish) than Judaeo-Spanish, the same goes for its publications. There are many other similar centres around the world.
However, not to be misunderstood, I don't discourage in anyway, anyone who writes in any of the orthographies.
I've to correct something you mentioned above. The Hebrew Orthography is unfortunately NOT understood by most of "real" JS speakers. What you say was true for the end-19th century. However since than, many speakers have passed to other orthographies (Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, Arabic). The first (and the longest) Latin orthography style that was used is the OF, the French one (since the 1860s).
Today, (not possible to know for sure but) best estimates would say that 75% of speakers use the Latin alphabet, while those who use the Hebrew alphabet (including the Rashi) would be around max. 15%. The rest would be like 7% Cyrillic, 2% Arabic and 1% Greek.
Thus, everyone can't read OE. There are like 7000 JS speakers in Turkey, mostly nobody there can read it. There are maybe 60,000 speakers in Israel, I would be really surprised if more than 1/4 of them could read it.
About the converter, I think it should be (and will be) able to convert:
  1. Any script into OE
  2. To any script from OU
  3. All Latin scripts from one to another (except for "to OU").
And OU is such a script that automatically "Shabbath" will go to "שבת". However I don't how that would work with other scripts that say Shabad, Chabad or Şabad. --Universal Life (discusión) 10:52 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
  • Especially since "Chabad" is the most common Latin orthography for חב"ד.
No, I'm guessing the way to handle that issue is for there to be a template that overrides the automatic script when the author specifies a spelling. We'd want that not only for שבת, but also for phrases like "Binyamin Netanyahu=בנימין נתניהו" and the like.
  • More generally, I'm counting on you to create or arrange for a conversion script. That is far beyond my technical expertise.
a. We will have to decide on a default behavior if someone is looking for OU, but the page was written some other way.
b. As I said, it doesn't look like much totally original material was ever written here in OE. If someone ever does do that, someone (not me!) will have to convert it manually to some Latin script for the script tool to work properly. (It's possible, I suppose, to write a second script to convert from OE to a Latin script, but only to create a draft. The final copy would have to fixed manually.)
  • I'm not defending ANL at all. Who is RAE?
  • I didn't realize that most people now cannot read OE. I assumed otherwise, because it's most authentic. Thank you for the correction. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:13 2 Set 2015 (UTC)

Problem of Title[trocar el manadero]

Unless, we get a Serbian WP-like tool, we actually have a problem of title. We have 5 orthographies in use: OU, AY, OF, OT, OE. Ortoģrafía Ebrea is not a problem, as the title in that orthography would always be different...However in the other 4 ones, sometimes the titles are exactly the same. For example a proper name would always be spelled same in each (Charles Darwin), there are cases where one or two would be different and the rest would be the same.

An immediate solution comes to mind as using (OF), (OT) etc... next to the titles, but it does really not look that clean or nice. What do you think? --Universal Life (discusión) 20:06 1 Set 2015 (UTC)

Following up on my suggestion above, there will typically be only one Latin version per article, so we won't need to add a legend to the title. I do think we should have some template on each page to show which orthography is used, so that style stays consistent. (That exists on a number of AY pages right now; see Kateggoría:Vikipedya:AY.) When our tool shows OE, that template should be hidden.
I have mixed feelings as to how important supporting OT is. Other than the OT version of the first page, are there many OT pages here? StevenJ81 (discusión) 01:57 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand how there could be only one Latin version per article. For example, someone could want to read about (and contribute to) Atatürk in the Turkish or French orthography. It's easy to do it with an article on Shabat as there would be:
The tags OT, OF etc. are quite recent (me and MaorX had decided to put it up, you know) and I think what we need is to draw users to the WP. There are thousands of people using the OT, we just need to advertise properly :)--Universal Life (discusión) 11:12 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
The idea I proposed, remember, was not to worry about converting between Latin scripts, and only about converting FROM any Latin script TO Hebrew script. So in that case, I was assuming that the Latin version that is already there is always the only one. Based on your suggestion, that's no longer what we're thinking about. However, what you're suggesting still requires a lot of manual work, as you'll see.
Mostly, I'm not worried about labeling versions as they appear to readers. If you go on Serbocroatian or Kazakh, you see that you choose the script up top, and the article automatically appears correctly, including its title. The only situation where that could matter for us is if someone wants OU, but it's not available. I'd rather let that appear as a hatnote. Otherwise, as we test this, we will be able to tell by inspection whether the conversion script is working correctly. I would worry about the following:
  • We need to make sure that the conversion script can really start from any orthography and convert to any other. If this means that every page needs to be labeled with a non-displaying template so the conversion script knows what it's seeing, we'll (not me!) have to do that manually, page by page.
  • Any individual page has to be written in only one orthography. It's too complicated to let a single page mix and match. Edit window will have to show what orthography is in use, by page.
  • Related: we don't have to tag titles by orthography. But sometimes we might have to create shortcuts reflecting other orthographies, so that people are redirected to the right page. That will take a lot of work, especially for OE shortcuts.
  • Other items on a page, such as section edit links, as well as the overall appearance of the left and side toolbars, do not change using a conversion script. On Kazakh Wikipedia they always appear in Cyrillic. On Serbocroatian, I think they appear as Latin/Cyrillic, because they've been programmed into translatewiki.net that way. We could possibly manage Latin/Hebrew, choosing one Latin script only–probably the one we already have–but that will take some work, and if most people don't read OE, I'm not sure it's worth the work. I think trying to show more than one Latin version for that will just make things look far too complicated for your average reader. And we will just have to hope that your average editor will be able to manage.
I don't want to discourage this effort. But you know how much time you (or you and Maor X) have, and I don't have the language skills to help with things that aren't mechanical tasks. And remember that this is a quiet community right now. So unless you can recruit additional help from outside, I'm not sure how we can accomplish all of this, even if we want to. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:57 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
I do want to clarify one thing: OF. When you say OF, are you referring to the French-based transcription? Or are you referring to Vikipedya:Ortografía Fonémica Escogida? Related: There seem to be a lot of competing help pages on different spelling systems—some of which are explicitly in modern Spanish—and eventually I need help getting them sorted out. StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:31 2 Set 2015 (UTC)

Hebrew Orthography[trocar el manadero]

And lastly, I wanted to clear out the conventions of how to write Judaeo-Spanish with the Hebrew alphabet. Many people think that it's written like the modern Hebrew language and that's where they err the most.

The 5 vowels a - e - i - o - u are written in the following way:

  • Middle of a word is the easiest: a is always an "alef", e/i is always a "yod" and o/u is always a "vav".
  • If a word begins with a vowel, it always begin with "alef":
    • A- simply an "alef"
    • E- or I- is an "alef+yod"
    • O- or U- is an "alef+vav"
  • And for the end of a word is the same as the middle of a word, except for -a, which a "ה" instead of an "א".

Examples: אלמה, אירמאנו, איסטורייה, אונזי, אונה

They are pronounced as "alma, ermano, istorya, onze, una".

About the consonants:

  • Vav is never used to give "v", instead bet with geresh is used: בֿ
  • Sounds of "dj" /d͡ʒ/ and "ch" /t͡ʃ/ are given with the same symbol: gimel with geresh: גֿ
  • Daleth with geresh gives the fricative (th) "d" sound, instead of the occlusive one: דידֿו (dedo).
  • Zayin with geresh gives the French "j" sound /ʒ/: זֿ
  • For the /k/ sound, except for obvious Hebrew origin words, always "kuf" is used, never "kaf".
  • Similarly always "tet" is used.
  • Pe with geresh is /f/.
  • For the consonant or the demi-consonant "y", double "yud" is used. However many instances "lamed yud yud" is used for a stronger "y" or a "y" that was originally a Castilian "ll" /ʎ/.

Examples: אמיגו, בוקה, בֿאזו, גאלייו, גֿינטי, גֿיקו, דולור, קאזה, אומברי, מושקה, אונו, מונדו, בֿיזינה, זֿורנאל, חאבֿיר, טאדֿרי, איגֿו, איזֿו, לייאבֿי, ליבֿרו, מאדֿרי, נו, סול, פאדֿרי, פֿרינטי, קאבֿיסה, רוזה, שארופי

But: חנוכה, ברכה, עינהרה, צדקה, תלמוד

I hope it helps. --Universal Life (discusión) 20:54 1 Set 2015 (UTC)

It does. Thanks. :) An Ashkenazi like me can also be influenced by the Yiddish conventions, such as ע=/e/. But I have to say: we're not consistent here, either. Consider אנסיקלופידיה ... then look at the spelling in the graphic at the top left of this page, which starts with ע. We have -ia endings (Fransia, Alemania) that end in יה-, endings that end in ייה-, and for that matter endings that end in ײה-. (The latter is the yud-yud digraph, instead of two separate yuds.) And there are other inconsistencies, I'm sure.
In our current world, nobody has the time to fix all of that. If we rely on the tool for OE, though, we can decide and can be consistent.
By the way: "עינהרה": do you mean this to be the Hebrew phrase "עין הרע" ("evil eye")? :) StevenJ81 (discusión) 02:15 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
Yeap, that's the "evil eye"...we say "aynara" :)
Why not "עינהרע" then? :) ... Do you know who created the graphic in the top left corner? It would be good if we could change the ayin to alef up there, sooner rather than later. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:59 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
Actually, you're the one who changed the alef to ayin, in January 2011. See Dosya:Wiki.png. Do you want to change it back, or was there a reason? StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:00 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
By the way, when I created {{Usador Administrador}} I kind of made it up as I went along. I just fixed some spelling based on what you sent me. But I just stole "temporario" and "investigue" from Spanish, and have no idea if they are really usable words in JS. By all means fix if you see fit. StevenJ81 (discusión) 02:43 3 Set 2015 (UTC)

First urgent priority[trocar el manadero]

Before anything else I've discussed over on my talk page, I would like to ask you to check something out urgently.

User/admin/bureaucrat Chabi/Chabi1 has made exactly one contribution of any kind since last November: he deleted a page on the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee. So this leads me to a few questions:

  1. Is there a formal policy/rule for de-sysop-ing inactive administrators? What is it?
  2. I can see some things about the deleted page that I'd fix. I'd rename it to a more native JS name. I'd remove the lat/long, because that is for a Jerusalem office of a US-based organization. I'd add a stub template. But otherwise, how could Chabi justify deleting this as "non-encyclopedic"?
  3. Can you go into his delete logs (both usernames)? It looks like there are some legitimate page deletions, but it also looks like there are some questionable ones. I just don't know JS well enough to say.

Other things can wait. Thanks. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:35 18 Ago 2015 (UTC)

Hi Steven,
Chabi is one of the oldest admins, he discussed with me on facebook about the deletion of some stub articles who were written in a wrong language (basically either plain modern Spanish or modern Spanish, made to look like Ladino). I restaured and checked the page and it was just an entry in complete modern Spanish. So I deleted again.
I think it would be more proper to tag them with a "delete" template first so other admins (or the creator) can have a look, I'll tell him that too. I hope everything else is ok. :) --Universal Life (discusión) 19:15 26 Ago 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying. Non-encyclopedic is one thing; Spanish and not Ladino is something different. I would not have bothered you on this if the edit summary had said "not Ladino".
By the way, I can definitely tell if an article is undisguised Spanish when I see it. But given that I don't really speak JS, and that there any many different ways to spell JS, I can't always tell if something is disguised Spanish instead of JS.
The same user that wrote the stub on the JDC (פרוק) has been adding a bunch of stubs recently. I am in no position to know if those are true JS or disguised modern Spanish. If you can check, it would be great. StevenJ81 (discusión) 22:39 26 Ago 2015 (UTC)

(1) Tagging articles for deletion; (2) All the other stuff on my talk page[trocar el manadero]

  1. I hope tagging articles for deletion works. But if you mean that to be for the purpose of getting someone to review articles for language or encyclopedic content, I don't know if it will work. I know that stewards and global sysops on the Small Wiki Monitoring Team come by and delete articles here from time to time. (Mostly not since I've been active, since I have been cleaning things up here.) You have to assume that if you tag an article with a delete template, and neither you nor I delete the article, eventually one of them will. So maybe it's better to create a template saying: "Please make encyclopedic" or "Please make into proper Ladino" and see if anyone jumps in to help out. Then we can decide that if nobody responds within a month, we'll just delete. (Do templates like that exist already??)
    If you can translate this text, I can turn it into templates: [This article is not encyclopedic./This article is not in Ladino. Please improve this article so that it meets the standards of Ladino Wikipedia. If this article is not improved in 30 days, it will be deleted.]
  2. I know you don't have much time to spend here. I'd still like you to respond to what I wrote on my talk page, if you can. One piece at a time will be more than enough! :) StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:48 27 Ago 2015 (UTC)

List of Months a la Franca and List of Days[trocar el manadero]

English OU AY Downloaded OF OT OE
January Jenero Djenero Enero Djenero Cenero גֿינירו
February Febrero Febrero Febrero Febrero Febrero פֿיברירו
March Março Marso Marso Marso Marso מארסו
April Abril Abril Avril Abril Abril אבריל
May Mayo Mayo Mayo Mayo Mayo מאײו
June Junio Djunyo Djunio Djunio Cunyo גֿונײו
July Julio Djulyo Djulio Djulio Culyo גֿולײו
August Agosto Agosto Ogosto Agosto Agosto אגוסטו
September Setiembre Setyembre Septembre Setiembre Setyembre סיטײמברי
October Ochobre Ochobre Oktubre Otchobre Oçobre אוגֿוברי
November Noviembre Novyembre Novembre Noviembre Novyembre נובֿײמברי
December Diziembre Dizyembre Desembre Diziembre Dizyembre דיזײמברי
English OU AY Downloaded OF OT OE
Sunday Alhadh Alhad Alhat Alhad Alhad אלחד
Monday Lunes Lunes Lunes Lunes Lunes לוניס
Tuesday Martes Martes Martes Martes Martes מארטיס
Wednesday Miércoles Myerkoles Mierkoles Mierkoles Myerkoles מײרקוליס
Thursday Juğeves Djugeves Djueves Djugeves Cugeves גֿוגיבֿיס
Friday Viernes Vyernes Viernes Viernes Vyernes ּבֿײרניס
Saturday Shabbath Shabad Shabat Chabad Şabad שבת

Salud, pessetas y fuerças a las castañetas! --Universal Life (discusión) 09:41 2 Set 2015 (UTC)

Something about castanets or trumpets?
But ... the one calendar source I did find was a calendar from ANL and Ben-Gurion University, presumably in AY(?), and it provided what I put in the additional column above. If they are using that, notwithstanding the traditional pronunciation, shouldn't I use that (for AY)?
I'm also a little surprised that OU (and OF, if based on French) would omit the "p" from "Se[p]tiembre". It appears in Latin, modern French (but silent) and modern Spanish (also silent?), so it seems part of the word history. That's probably why it appears in the version I downloaded, even though it is not phonetic. StevenJ81 (discusión) 19:55 2 Set 2015 (UTC)
It's just a slang expression that my grandpa says sometimes when he's cheerful "Health, money and strength to the castanets" :) --Universal Life (discusión) 09:28 7 Set 2015 (UTC)

Status of the main projects I took on[trocar el manadero]

  1. Clean-up of Hebrew-script articles. I have done the following to all Hebrew-script pages in Main, Template and Category spaces, with the exception of the home page and home page templates:
    • Right-justified all text (not on all category pages), shifted most templates and pictures across to the left side (as on a Hebrew or Yiddish Wikipedia page). NOTE: I did not try to correct text, unless something was obvious even to me.
    • Added navigation tabs between all paired articles, templates and categories (e.g., Astronomiya and אסטרונומייה)
    • In all Wikidata items pointing to Hebrew-script articles, I moved the pointer to the Latin-script article. I then created new Wikidata items for the Hebrew-script articles, including Wikidata property P460 ("said to be the same as") to relate the new Wikidata item to the original one. I then used Módulo:Interwiki to add interwiki links to all the Hebrew-language. (I need to you to write documentation in JS for that Module.)
    • In the process, a handful of such pages ended up being junk, and were deleted, or were duplicates, and merged.
    • In the process, I eliminated some categories with fewer than three entries.
  2. Attaching interwiki links to all pages not previously having them. See Especial:SinIntervikis. The original number was cut about in half. Again, excluding the home page versions, the remaining pages on that list fall almost entirely into two groups:
    • Small localities in Spain, mainly in the Provinsia de Burgos. I don't quite know how all of these got here, to be honest. I don't know if they are truly in JS or in Spanish. They're not Wikified. They say almost nothing about the place other than its location, and possibly its parish church—not that I object to that in principle, but that's an odd item to include in a Judeo-Spanish Wiki.
      (There were a number of items that I could describe similarly, but for which I could find explicit articles on eswiki. In those cases I linked the articles through Wikidata. I cannot even tell you that all of those articles, nearly entirely stubs, are really JS. But at least the locality was sizable enough to have an article in eswiki.)
      In some cases, when I looked for a corresponding article on eswiki, I found a deletion log. Sometimes these appeared to me to be for copyright infringement, while others mentioned that the pages had been created by banned users. What that means, I don't know.
      Many of the remaining place articles do refer to places that are mentioned in list articles on eswiki like es:Anexo:Localidades de Burgos agrupadas por comarcas. In principle, I'm willing to add manual iw links from these pages to that eswiki annex page. But before I do that, I think we need to decide if these places are notable or not, and if the articles are really in JS or in Spanish.
    • Items of interest only/mainly to the Sefardic community. In these cases, I worked hard to find appropriate articles elsewhere. Sometimes, I found sections of articles on other wikis that were appropriate, and added manual iw links to those sections. I would welcome you to take another look. If we do not end up finding links for these, we'll just need to leave them as articles without interwiki links, but I'll eventually make sure they have Wikidata items.
  3. Attaching Wikidata items to all pages not previously having them. See Especial:PáginasSinConexión. Naturally, working on the previous two problems is contributing to the solution of this problem. Aside from the pages just above with no interwiki links, a lot of the other pages here are in Template, Vikipedya and Ayudo spaces.
    • For templates, part of this is simply a matter of my working my way down the list.
    • For other templates, there seem to have been some parallel imports—some apparently from whatever other wiki people were most comfortable with. Obviously, many come from eswiki, which is our "usual" source of infrastructure. But others seem to be from places like itwiki and anwiki. So we have, for example, Xablón:Sivdad, Xablón:Siudad, and Xablón:Sivdad2. But all are in use, so we have to decide how to handle them. (Here: The first one is the main one used on city articles. The second is used once and looks similar to the first. Input parameters are a little different. So I have to adjust the page that transcludes it; then we can delete. But the third looks very different, and is used on four pages about cities in Aragon. Do we merge anyway? Leave it alone?)
      I have already merged and deleted some of these, where one wasn't in use (or was barely in use). Others may not be as easy.
    • The Wikipedia and Help spaces are a real mess, and I can't begin to assign Wikidata items to some of these until you (and/or others) untangle them. Just on orthography alone, I found eight pages (see Usador:StevenJ81#Pages on Orthography), and there might be others. Some are frankly in Spanish, and for this purpose that might even be appropriate. I can't tell if they all go together in parallel (and maybe should be tabbed like the home page), if they reflect competing approaches, if some are secondary pages to others ...
      There are other Wikipedia and Help pages that seem parallel (or competing), too. There are links to nowhere (or to mostly empty pages). I fixed one spot where a request for an ambassador opened an ambassador request page ... on eswiki! But for the most part I do not understand any of these pages—at least not at a fine level of detail. So I can't untangle this.
    • A few items here are duplicate pages where I can't really judge how to merge. I'll identify those for you explicitly.

I will continue to work on the following:

  • Finishing items #1 and #2 for the home pages and home page templates. (Avoiding: I probably need to create lots of Wikidata items for this.)
  • Working through item #3 where either (a) it's simply a matter of locating the right Wikidata item or (b) any merging is easy and mechanical.

I need your input on the following:

  • Notability guidelines for this wiki on localities. If we have no explicit guidelines and fall back to eswiki, I need a Spanish speaker to interpret their guidelines and to decide whether all of these little places in Burgos are entitled to articles here, when they don't even have articles at eswiki.
    ...and while you're at it: judgment as to whether these locality stubs are JS or Spanish.
  • A further look at whether some of the very-Sefardi-themed articles without iw links actually have some analogs, especially if those analogs are likely to be found on hewiki or trwiki.
  • Mostly: help on untangling the Vikipedya and Ayudo spaces.

StevenJ81 (discusión) 17:55 3 Set 2015 (UTC)

Restored redirect[trocar el manadero]

Hi, UL: I restored the redirect left behind at Vikipedya:Artikolos buenos. As a general rule, it is never a bad idea to leave redirects behind when they are common misspellings—especially when that is a misspelling due to presence or absence only of diacritical marks. See en:Wikipedia:Redirect#reasons. StevenJ81 (discusión) 21:42 9 Set 2015 (UTC)

I'd deleted thinking that searching it without the diacritic would give the same result automatically. But reading the link you've sent me now I see why it's better to keep it. Thanks --Universal Life (discusión) 03:07 10 Set 2015 (UTC)

Shalom[trocar el manadero]

Ma nishmah? I saw your page Usador:Universal Life/Tasks & Vocabulary. Are you planning to create a Wikiproject on this Wikipedia? --Katxis (discusión) 08:20 14 Set 2015 (UTC)

Nope, I'm just reviewing things (and vocabulary) that should be/should have been accomplished in order...and also creating a Lad Wiktionary, you know..so I think that page will be useful. --Universal Life (discusión) 08:27 14 Set 2015 (UTC)
Btw, which user name are you using Chabi1 or Katxis? Or both? I've nominated Steven as an admin. He's been really working hard for this WP. I would be glad if you went and voted for him too :) --Universal Life (discusión) 08:29 14 Set 2015 (UTC)
I cannot enter anymore with Chabi not Chabi1 so I created this one. But I am the same. --Katxis (discusión) 08:45 14 Set 2015 (UTC)

Is this page worth anything?[trocar el manadero]

See Usador:StevenJ81/טײאטרו. I found this at טײאטרו, and couldn't make any sense of it, particularly as it would apply to its apparent topic. (It's certainly not a transcription of Teatro.) So I moved it to user space. If it's junk, let's delete it. StevenJ81 (discusión) 19:57 17 Set 2015 (UTC)

Yeap, it's junk. --Universal Life (discusión) 23:22 17 Set 2015 (UTC)

La Primera Hoja[trocar el manadero]

I think we're all done with that, except that I guessed on the spelling on the tabs in OF, which you never updated. So just have a quick check. שבת שלום. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:02 18 Set 2015 (UTC)

Paperwork for Katxis and Me[trocar el manadero]

Since it looks like you're declaring me "no longer temporary" (thank you!), may I suggest:

  1. Mark my candidacy successful at Vikipedya:Kandidaturas a Administrador. (I will need to show this to the Stewards at Meta to confirm my election as permanent so that they don't desysop me on October 12.)
  2. Flag both Katxis and me as Bureaucrats as well as Administrators.

Once you do that, I'll ask Katxis on-Wiki (so I can show it to the Stewards) if he is ok with having the Chabi/Chabi1 accounts de-flagged. (I'm afraid I'm good at paperwork.) StevenJ81 (discusión) 17:22 24 Set 2015 (UTC)

Hi Steven, honestly I've been on the admin page, to write that as around 20 days have passed and as everyone unanimously accepted, StevenJ81 is now full admin..something like that...However, I couldn't find the means to do that, as you were already marked admin...I checked when the 3 months ends, it would be like in 2 weeks...so I thought, that's the only time I could mark you as a full admin (technically). That's why I didn't write what I intended (as I thought I couldn't technically implement it).
I also saw that I can't remove the adminship of Chabi and Chabi1...even though the accounts are inactive now. (I already spoke with him on facebook, he's completely ok with it, he said, he can't access those accounts.)
Ok, so I'll conclude your adminship on page and add you an Katxis as brcrts. You go on, do the paperwork with the Stewards :) And then we'll be back at working enhancing our beautiful WP ;) --Universal Life (discusión) 19:56 24 Set 2015 (UTC)
Excellent. I'm with you!
Bureaucrats (including you) cannot remove administrator or bureaucrat flags. Only the stewards can do that. I can tell the stewards that Katxis proved to your satisfaction off-wiki that he is the same person, so you were willing to flag him. However, I think Katxis will need to state on wiki that he is ok having the flags removed from the other accounts (because he cannot access them any more). So just tell him that is why I am going to ask him on-line: not because I don't believe you or him, but I want to be able to show the stewards something.
I don't think the "temp" admin and the permanent admin look any different. It's just that the stewards would automatically pull my rights on October 12 otherwise. StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:13 24 Set 2015 (UTC)
תודה רבה! StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:53 24 Set 2015 (UTC)

Wiktionary[trocar el manadero]

Please check your talk page over at the Incubator. I wrote you a question there. StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:53 24 Set 2015 (UTC)

Usador:Shenzibanzaied[trocar el manadero]

Thank you for rolling this back. This user has a history of small, silly, disruptive edits. Perhaps you can write a warning on the user's talk page. מועד טוב. StevenJ81 (discusión) 00:27 30 Set 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I left a message for him. --Universal Life (discusión) 10:27 7 Ocho 2015 (UTC)

La Kavané[trocar el manadero]

We need to have a Café/Village Pump where people can actually edit. Here's my suggestion (and I'm happy to execute it): I will move the top content of the page to a template. (Of course, it needs fixing itself, but that's a different discussion.) That template will remain fully protected. Once I do that, though, the Kavané page can be unprotected (or semiprotected, but I don't even think that's necessary). StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:52 30 Set 2015 (UTC)

I don't think we need a La Kavané/Village Pump for few reasons. First, La Kavané is the Village Pump. Second, we have very few conversations in there and the community is quite small, I've gone through many other WPs and even though some of them are like the English WP (they have a separate place to write), many WPs write actually on the main Village Pump space. The text on the top is superflous and can be reduced. And I agree, it would be nice to have it on a template, it would be even easier to edit La Kavané. --Universal Life (discusión) 10:32 7 Ocho 2015 (UTC)
That's what I meant. Sorry to have been confusing. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:24 7 Ocho 2015 (UTC)
Have you seen Usador:Universal Life/La Kavané? --Universal Life (discusión) 15:40 7 Ocho 2015 (UTC)
Very nice! I think all we really need at the top of La Kavané is:
  • That header
  • Aze klik akí para avrir un muevo tema de konversasión en la Kavané (as on current page)—probably incorporated into your header.
  • Offer for the "embassy" as at the top of the current page. (Add he and tr: can you write these? Then we should be monitoring the embassy pages. I'll take en and fr, you take tr, Katxis can take es [right?], and anyone besides me can take he.)
  • Some link to some version of Kómo meldar i eskrivir—at least once all those pages are unscrambled
If you write the he and tr embassy lines, I'll do the rest.
I hope the conclusion of the חגים were good for you. I enjoyed them very much, but as usual on the day after שמחת תורה (which it is where I live!), I'm feeling tired, and not quite ready to jump back into the real world yet. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:00 7 Ocho 2015 (UTC)

[trocar el manadero]

I adapted the current wiki.png as at right to correct the spelling in ivrit. However, I cannot turn it into a transparent png file, so I'll leave that to you. (If it's not sharp/crisp enough, the font used is Arial 7, so it's easy enough to do.) StevenJ81 (discusión) 21:38 2 Nov 2015 (UTC)

I managed somehow. The ticket for updating the logo is phabricator:118491. שבת שלום. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:06 13 Nov 2015 (UTC)
New logo will be deployed 7 Dec. StevenJ81 (discusión) 18:23 25 Nov 2015 (UTC)
Link to deleted file removed. StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:27 12 Abr 2016 (UTC)

Short translation question[trocar el manadero]

Please look at this: Usador:StevenJ81/BSD. Tell me if I got close. Thanks! StevenJ81 (discusión) 23:32 2 Nov 2015 (UTC)

Request at May 2016[trocar el manadero]

Hi, UL:

I think something we need to do sooner rather than later is to figure out how to handle User:פארוק. He adds reasonable and useful stub content about physical and social institutions in Israel, and I hate to delete them. But he almost always writes in regular Castilian Spanish, not in JS. See, for example, one of his latest, Yom Hazikaron. Instead of deleting this on language grounds, I would far prefer to have something like this translated into JS (with the original perhaps copied into eswiki). But I can't do it. And Katxis's preferred approach is simply to delete something like this. (Note: Katxis is mostly busy getting Jamaican Creole Wikipedia running right now.) So maybe you can help with this—translate the Spanish pages to JS, write פארוק in Hebrew on his talk page, whatever. Otherwise, we'll just keep deleting content that we probably ought to keep here. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:24 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Flag[trocar el manadero]

Just wanted to let you know that I now have the test-administrator flag at JS Wiktionary and Wikibooks. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:15 14 Jun 2016 (UTC)

Some things for your early review[trocar el manadero]

Please see Kateggoría:Articles probably not in JS, a hidden category I created. These are generally pages made by our friend פארוק. Frankly, these are legitimate, reasonable contributions—except that he really seems to be writing in modern Spanish, not in JS. Whenever I contact Katxis about this, he just goes and deletes the pages. I think it would be better to correct them if possible, but try as I might, my JS is just not really good enough. (There may be other pages פארוק wrote besides these that are also problematic, but I started with these.) I will leave it to you whether to delete these pages or correct them. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 21 Siván 5776 • 14:01 27 Jun 2016 (UTC)

On a separate topic, I am now a test-admin at Incubator. I'm assigned to Wt/lad, of course, and also to Wb/lad and Wb/yi, which are both pretty much dormant projects. I suppose one question to ask you is: Do we ever expect anyone to create any content for Wb/lad? Should we just leave it sit there for "just in case someone ever shows up"? Should we shut it down? I would appreciate your opinion. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 21 Siván 5776 • 14:01 27 Jun 2016 (UTC)
Last, there are a variety of queries and policies I laid out in the Kavané that really should be translated, if you can do that. (I will add that I put a little hidden trick in the Kavané: if you click on the coffee cup on the left you skip the header and jump down to the table of contents.) StevenJ81 (discusión) • 21 Siván 5776 • 14:05 27 Jun 2016 (UTC)

Norte[trocar el manadero]

Shalom Universal Life, trato de usar la escritura de aki yerushalayim, que es la forma de escribir más sencilla, he visto muchas palabras aquí escritas; por ejemplo izla (ayi yerushalayim) e izola (una forma más en alfabeto turco), lo mismo con nord y norte, sud y sur, creo que ambas correctas, pero bueno, no me parece mal hacer cambios a norte. Gracias por el tip.--Marrovi (discusión) 13:26 21 Nov 2016 (UTC)

Universal Life, ¿Kieres ke eskriva en djudeo-espanyol?, shukur amigo.--Marrovi (discusión) 13:42 21 Nov 2016 (UTC)

Todas las personas ke avlan djudeo-espanyol se komprenden bien (personas grandes de edad en alkunos paizes de oriente y de la mar mideterranea), los dialektos ke mas logro deprender en el avla es el haketia, ay munchas palavras de ayi ke las uzamos en muestros puevlos meksikanos i latinoamerikanos, el aki yereshalayim agora lo meldo por internet kon eshemplos de la hoja del Ladino , yo no soy avlante orijinalo, gusto muncho de esta lingua porke ansina ay similtud kon el avla de los mis nonos (aguelos), solo ke la muestra avla no es ladino, es komo un kastilyano antiko kon mistura de linguas indijenas.--Marrovi (discusión) 13:55 21 Nov 2016 (UTC)

Mejor JE, kero deprender todos los sus dialektos o formas de eskrivir (ortografias), azer artikolos en distintas ortofrafias, amijorar las mis edisiones en varias ortografias, yo sé ke no me preguntas esto, pero es presiso saber. No soy djudeo, kreo en el Dio, ma no prediko relijion alkuna, vengo de una famiya katolika, asegun, solo un antiko de la mi famiya hue djudio, ansina tambien konosi otras personas ansianas de la mi rejion ke aseguravan venir de antikos djudios, ma ninguna persona hue asimilada djudia, todos katolikos kon alkuno lashon djudaizante, komo komer poko porko, banyo de sabado, envolver personas amortesidas kon savana blanka en el piso, durmir kon agua en la kavesera, azer ayuno alkunos dias, ma nada de djudezmo, todo misturado kon kreyensias kristianas.--Marrovi (discusión) 14:14 21 Nov 2016 (UTC)
Es verdá tengo munchos yerros, soy falso ladino, mas bien soy interesado en konozer la kultura ladina, ma kuando ha avido la oportunidá de viajar huera de Meksiko, la djente evropea me diz turkano o sirio, more zinko meses en la Almania i tambien djente me dizia turko envez de meksikano.--Marrovi (discusión) 14:22 21 Nov 2016 (UTC)
¿Puedo ajudar?, ¿Tambien puedo sumar la lingua portugeza?.--Marrovi (discusión) 15:09 21 Nov 2016 (UTC)

Sivdad de Meksiko[trocar el manadero]

Shalom, Buenos dias, ¿Puedesh ajudarme kon el amijoramiento deste artikolo?, lo tengo muncho avanzado agora, la ortografia en uzo es aki Yerushalayim. Asta mas ver, mersi.--Marrovi (discusión) 17:34 22 Nov 2016 (UTC)

beleyides[trocar el manadero]

Shalom Universal Life; gusto muncho de tukizar el ladino, ma en ayi Yereshalayim ay munchas entradas de huerte influensia kaltilyana, endemas gusto de uzar tildes komo en kaltilyano porke puedo meldar bien i saber ande keda la silaba mas huerte de un biervo. Munchas palavras zon rekordadas por mi, ansi se uzan en mi paiz i en los muestros puevlos, es muncho mas en las viyas porke la djente mayora kontinua avlando kaltilyano antiko; en las sivdades es una mala uzansa avlar kom se avla en los chikos puevlos.

Es emportante ke las wikipedias tengan muevos artikolos, porke ansina tambien se borran las ansiklopedias ke no ay uzo kontunuo, no es emportante la su kalidad si no ay usadores aktivos (eso siknifika ke no ay meldadores de avla nativa), es mas, por no tener avlantes nativos i usadores kontinuos es una kausa de esborrado, ma agora egziste bastantes artikolos muevos en ladino i eso es bueno para la permanensia. Sabemos ke los vedraderos avlantes del djudeo espanyol no uzaran Vikipedya, eyos zon personas mayoras ke no kreo que dispongan tiempo suyo para eskrivir aki, ainda, kaji todos los muevos deprendizes de ladino zon avlantes de ivrit o turko, la su infliensia es azia estas linguas, en Amérika latina no es emportante saber ladino de los nonos, aki la lingua espanyola okupa la uzansa del avla, ansina kon deprendizes de Maroko o paizes arabos.

Otro punto, es ke los enbeliyes o munisipios en Amerika latina zon grandes, kontan kon munchas povlasiones i una kapitala munisipal ke mosotros yamamos (cabecera municipal), lo kualo no es lo mismo kon los enbeliyes de Espanya ke son chikos y kaji no ay otras viyas o lokalidades sujetas a un puevlo mayor komo las kapitalas munsipalas. Siempre es bueno embezar esto, por eso para el kaso latinoamerikano no se puede tener un solo artikolo en la mayorita de los sus kasos, esa es la razon, endagora ke edito los antikos artikolos para tener un orden. Azta mas ver, todo lo ke presises me puedesh eskrivir, mersi.--Marrovi (discusión) 15:58 26 Nov 2016 (UTC)

Aki en mi puevlo vamos azer un livro de mitos, leyendas, istorias i anekdotas de la djente mayora, ja kaji todos zon amortesidos, solo kendan muy pokos desendientes de antikos espanyoles y portugezos, ninguno es djudio, todos zon katolikos porke la inkisision espanyola hue huerte en estas tierras del Muevo Olam, razon de trokar al kristinizmo para konservar las tierras de las enkomiendas ke sedio Hernando Cortés a la su djente de la konkista. La idea sentrala es eskrivir en kaltilyano antiko (komo mosotros le yamamos), este projekto de livro va a ser una ultima lembraza de akeyos iberikos ke se afikaron akí en muestra rejion i ke misturaron el lashon kon la de los puevlos orijinarios (aztekos i otomis) de estas tierras ke endemas zon muestros nonos.--Marrovi (discusión) 16:12 26 Nov 2016 (UTC)

Ay estos artikolos amijorados para azar diferensia:

He trokado el nombre a Real de Asientos, esta es la kavesa de Asientos, i tambien konsevo la su entrada de Beleddiyé de Assientos. --Marrovi (discusión) 18:42 26 Nov 2016 (UTC)

Feliche anyo muevo[trocar el manadero]

Shukur al Dios, feliche anyo muevo 2017, en la Amerika ainda es 2016.--Marrovi (discusión) 01:37 1 Jen 2017 (UTC) ,

Alfabeto hebraico[trocar el manadero]

Olá, eu gostaria de saber mais sobre o uso do alfabeto hebraico no judeu-espanhol. Como se distingue o som das letras que representam as vogais e/i e o/u? Como faço para saber se alef+yod soa como um "e" e não como "i" em uma determinada palavra? Ou Alef+Vav soa como "o" e não como "u"? Exemplo: As palavras אירמאנו e איסטורייה. Como saber se são pronunciadas como "ermano" e "istorya" e não como "irmanu" e "esturia"?Luis Gabriel Moraes Dias (discusión) 16:39 25 Jen 2017 (UTC)

Especial:SinIntervikis[trocar el manadero]

As you know, one of my early projects here was to make sure that all pages had Wikidata links and interwiki language links. I haven't done too poorly; there are no main space pages without a Wikidata item, and generally pages in the Template:, Module: and Portal: spaces without Wikidata items are either ineligible (e.g., /doc subpages) or are for templates that are for temporary purposes and will probably soon be deleted.

With respect to Especial:SinIntervikis, I've got it down to 15 pages. In some other cases I created manual iw links to sections of pages on other wikis (like enwiki or eswiki) because other wikis only covered in sections what we were covering with a whole article. But that's generally fine. I have worked hard to find links for the remaining 15 pages, without success. Most are articles that are really of much greater interest to the JS community than any other (like Ladinokomunita), or at least do not have articles elsewhere, even if one thinks they deserve one (like Instituto Ma'ale Adumim). Except for one of the 15, those articles could theoretically have counterparts on enwiki, eswiki, or hewiki, but don't. The one exception is Abutargo, which would have a counterpart only on trwiki, if anywhere. I couldn't find one, but then again I have no Turkish at all. So see if you can find something! StevenJ81 (discusión) • 16 Av 5777 • 15:34 8 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Yeap caviar (TR: havyar) --Universal Life (discusión) 18:30 9 Ago 2017 (UTC)
Ladinokomunita and Instituto Ma'ale Adumim, two articles you've noted above, appear to be on topics of interest to readers of English and Hebrew, two WPs in which I regularly work (though rarely add pages). The notability and citation requirements of the EN WP being rather strict and HE WP somewhat fussy, I'll evaluate the source material and post my assessment on the Talk page of each, should the source require expansion before I proceed with the EN and HE translations. -- Deborahjay (discusión) 08:35 30 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Kriasion de muevas ojas (Marrovi)[trocar el manadero]

Kerido, Meldi alkunos de los trokamientos freskos en la Vikipedya, i todos kon yerros, eskritos en Kastilyano o tresladados trokando C por K, S por Z i metiendo Y en todos lados. Tenes konosensia ke tiene un permanent ban en la Vikipedia en Kastilyano? Eskrivime al telefono si puede ser. --Maor X (discusión) 20:42 17 Ago 2017 (UTC)

En Aki Yerusharayim[trocar el manadero]

Shalom; Al meldar en Aki Yerusharayim, los nombres de las sivdades espanyolas son en kastilyano; por eshemplo; Sevilla en vez de Seviya, Zaragoza, en vez de Saragosa. Ke se puede fazer? trokar o deshar ansina komo ja estava?. Alkunos nombres son trokados al djudeoespanyol komo Kalifornia, Yukatan, Muevo Meksiko i no ay difikultá de eskrivir desa forma. Son munchos los biervos ke troke, por eshemplo; Keretaro por Querétaro, Kolima por Colima, Oajaka por Oaxaca, ansi en kalstilyano komo usa AY. Uso biervos ke no son AY, purke prokuro ke seja mas sirka al turkano, komo Istorya, Nasyon, Komunita, anke deve ser Istoria, Nasion o Komunidad.

Mersi por dar avizo, no melde el biervo shablon, pensei ke era permitido, anke en kastilyano puede ser tablón en vezes de plantilla; endemas es mal, deve ser US-HI i no US-HW, Pode se trokar a US-HI?. Mersis.--Marrovi (discusión) 10:41 20 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Ya trokado, de US-HW por US-HI, Mersi.--Marrovi (discusión) 13:11 23 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Del arabo[trocar el manadero]

Mersis por eskrivir en djudeoespanyol, yo embezo rapido, ansina kon ayudo de meldar ladino.

Ay un biervo ke puede ser trokado; ay uso aki de Vaye (valle en kastilyano), ma en arabo es Waddi, no se komo s diz valle o valley en turkano o djudeoespanyol dela Turkia, ma puede ser un egzemplo; Vadi de Meksiko en vez de Vaye de Meksiko o Valle de México, No topo diksionario alkuno ande se melde en ladino, el biervo Valley. --Marrovi (discusión) 11:29 20 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Flag of Spanish language (ES-MX).svg Aunque por geografía ambos son creados por un río, y mantienen su designación incluso cuando el río se ha secado - un valle es generalmente más grande y más ancho que un uadi (la misma palabra en Arabe y en Hebreo, wadi). Los dos pueden ser localidad con habitantes: mira es:Valle de San Fernando, es:Uadi Ara, y es:Arroyo_Seco_(Nuevo_México). Creo que un Wadi no parece un valle, sino es más similar a un cañón o un arroyo. -- Deborahjay (discusión) 08:56 30 Ago 2017 (UTC)
Flag of Spanish language (ES-MX).svg (by Google translate) No estoy seguro de que realmente tiene en hebreo y árabe. Y mientras pueda en castellano, no me sorprendería que el sentido hebreo / árabe sea más fuerte en JE. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 8 Elul 5777 • 14:29 30 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Kateggoría:Vikipedya:Artikolos kandidatos para buenos[trocar el manadero]

Shalom, Buenas tadres; esta kategoria es para los artikolos kon mas edisiones i mas mirados en Vikipedya, zon faltos de transliteresiones algunos, seria bueno akompletar la lista, amijorar las referensias i kudiar el estil de edision. Mersi Marrovi (discusión) 20:14 3 dec 2017 (UTC)

Formal notice[trocar el manadero]

Just because I think I should record it on-wiki somewhere: I have added you to the user group "IP block exemption". (You're the only member of that group at the moment.) I have not set an expiration time for this. But when you're back in Israel, let me know and I'll remove it—or, I think, you can remove it yourself. You can flag yourself with this whenever you're traveling, and unflag when you are back in Israel. (You know where that is, right? Click on Modificar grupos del usuario on the left side.) StevenJ81 (discusión) • 29 Teveth 5778 • 21:06 15 jen 2018 (UTC)