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Saludes, StevenJ81![trocar | editar código]

Venidas buenas i klaras a la Vikipedya Judeo-Espanyola!

¡Na! Aki tenes unos atamientos para ayudarte:

De nuevo, buenas venidas a la Vikipedya Judeo-Espanyola!


Repuesta tadre / Late reply[trocar | editar código]

Venido bueno Steven / Welcome Steven

En primero quero dezir que me alegrì muncho de verte aquí en la Vikipedya Judeo-Española. Yay muncho tiempo que dingunos hazen un esforço parâ amijorarla.

Fisrt of all, I want to say that I'm very happy to see you in the Judaeo-Spanish Wikipedia. Since a while, almost nobody was giving any effort to better it.

Escúsame muncho parâ la tadre repuesta mía, estava muy muy ocupado en mis tiempos d'alcavo. Y munchas gracias parâ ajustar el Kalendario Ebreo a la Primera Hoja.

I'm very sorry about my late reply, I was extremely busy lately. And thank you very much for adding the Hebrew Calender on the Main Page.

Yo conoçco a Maor X de cara en cara. Penso que y él no estuvo muy aktivo en la Vikipedya en los tiempos d'alcavo. Estávamos lavorando con él enjuntos en unos projetos ma daínda no se escaparon. Io estuve mas aktivo por d'alcavo (cuando topì tiempo) en el projeto del Viksionario Judeo-Español. Penso que un Viksioner es muy importante como un ayudante léksiko a la Vikipedya.

I know Maor X personally. I think he hasn't been very active neither lately in the Vikipedya. We were working together on some projects but they didn't finish yet. I have been more active lately (when I could find time) in the project of the Judaeo-Spanish Wiktionary. I think that a Wiktionary is an important lexical help for the Wikipedia.

Penso que es importante que tengamos dar y aver de oy endelantre, parâ desvelopar y amijorar y la Vikipedya y el Viksioner. Te quero de muevo rengraciar por todos tus kontribüsyones.

I think it's important that we stay in touch from now on, in order to develop and better both the Wikipedia and the Wiktionary. I want to thank you again for all your contributions.

Buenas noches y al vermos / Good night and see you :) --Universal Life (discusión) 23:43 20 Jul 2015 (UTC)

@Universal Life and Maor X: I am delighted to see you both back—and both today, as it happens.
As you see from my user page, I don't really speak Judaeo-Español, and just barely (kinda/sorta) can figure out what I'm reading. On this round of visiting this wiki, I came to build a calendar template ({{Oy}}). I then decided to add the Hebrew date to the home page, as you saw; in that case, once you two didn't respond, I had a Steward temporarily unlock the page for me. And then, finally, I decided that I didn't like the fact that most of the articles written in Hebrew alef-bet were nevertheless left-justified, so I wanted to fix them. But over the course of starting to scan those articles, I ran into some inappropriate content. So I decided to ask Stewards for the admin tools on a temporary basis so that I could clean up as I went along. So that's where we are right now.
So far,
  1. I right-justified all the Hebrew-script pages, and fitted them with the tabs you created for the home page so that it would be easy to shift back and forth between twinned articles.
  2. I did the same for twinned templates and twinned categories. In the case of categories, if a category had only one entry, and its twin also had only one entry, I deleted both. If there were three entries between them, I merged them. If there were three entries each, I kept both. I won't be insulted if you undo any of this, but I thought that would be appropriate.
  3. I created a couple of subst:-able templates to speed the process ({{TabsH}} and {{TabsL}}; {{RTL top}} and {{RTL bottom}}), but if one of you were willing to write documentation for them it would be great
I mostly can't edit directly in Judaeo-Español, so I've found a couple of other useful things to do:
  • I'm going through pages without interlanguage links and trying to find matches. I'm at the end of the G's so far.
  • I am told that we get random access from Wikidata on July 29. Someone over there has told me how to get the wikidata-driven iw links onto the Hebrew-script pages, even where the Latin-script page is the one in wikidata. So after July 29 I'll work on that.
Since I don't speak the language, I probably shouldn't be a permanent administrator here. If you will be back around a little more regularly I will be glad to step down after my three months if you wish. If it would be helpful for you if I kept the tools, then based on your judgment I would be fine with that. And in any event please feel free to add {{Usador Administrador}} to your user pages (and fix the language) if you like. And that's all the news for now. StevenJ81 (discusión) 02:31 21 Jul 2015 (UTC)

A couple of additional questions[trocar | editar código]

  1. Someone recently asked me about this alphabet-converter system used on some other wikis (like Kazakh and Serbian). It seems you looked into this at one point, and were told that the demand is not high enough. Do I have that right? In principle, I would want to do it anyway, because a Hebrew-script Judeo-Spanish is really more authentic and definitive than any Latin-script transcription. But in the execution of it, even if we could get the powers that be to install it here, I'm not sure how we'd use it:
    • Which Latin transcription would we use? Or would we give a choice of all of them (four on the current home page)?
    • How in the world do you do vowels? It just feels like there is far too much variation on vowels to make it work.
    • It would probably break down on Hebrew/Aramaic-derived vocabulary that is written traditionally (like Shabat > שבת, and not שאבאט).
    Any further thoughts?
  2. Do you have any idea whom I ought to talk to about having the bidi buttons added to the editing boxes here? See yiwiki, which I think invented them, or Wikidata or Meta, where they are currently in use. These would be massively useful here, and might well make it easier for people to write Hebrew-script articles. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:17 22 Jul 2015 (UTC)

@StevenJ81, sorry for the delay again, real life events have been keeping me really busy...Coming back to the topic, I've lots to say, so I need to go point-by-point.--Universal Life (discusión) 11:20 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Universal Life, it's not a problem at all. Having you here sometimes to help, or at least to consult with, is extremely helpful to me. For example: I tried very, very hard to find online resources to support the calendar issue. I had a hard time finding very much, to be honest with you. So just having you here for me to consult with is enormously helpful.
I understand not necessarily being able to spend a lot of time. I spend too much, probably, as it is. I'll be honest: if you can just check for questions from me once a week, for 10-15 minutes, it would save me a ton of time, too. I'll respond to some other issues point by point below. (This week might take more than 15 minutes, but I'll try to keep it down after this.) StevenJ81 (discusión) 13:53 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Hebrew calender/Oy[trocar | editar código]

I want to start with the calender. Thank you very much for the {{Oy}} template and the Hebrew dates. I'm very slow with templates, so I need to tell you some little details/little mistakes that we need to change. The traditional Judaeo-Spanish speaking Sephardic community's Hebrew calender format is not exactly the same with the one used in Israel. And similarly the Sephardic pronunciation of the months is not the same as in Modern Hebrew (just like Yiddish). The Hebrew/Aramaic names of the months in Judaeo-Spanish are as follows:

Ebreo (OU) Ebreo (AY) Aramí (OU) Aramí (AY) Span
Nissán Nisan Nissannu Nisanu March-April
Iyyar Iyar Ayaru Ayaru April-May
Siván Sivan Simanu Simanu May-June
Tammuz Tamuz Du'uzu Duuzu June-July
Av Av Abu Abu July-August
Elul Elul Ululu Ululu August-September
Tishrí Tishri Tashretu Tashretu September-October
Marḥeshván Marheshvan Arakshamma Arakshama October-November
Kislev Kislev Kislimu Kislimu November-December
Teveth Teved Tabetu Tabetu December-January
Shevat Shevat Shabatu Shabatu January-February
Adhar Adar Addaru Adaru February-March

I think that the Aramaic names were reserved in some specific use in the religious circles, so I don't think it's necessary to add to the Wikipedia, though I wouldn't oppose. In all the journals published, mostly, there were four calenders called:

  • The main one (Hebrew calender) - on top and under it:
  • A la Grega (on the left)
  • A la Turca (in the middle)
  • A la Franca (on the right, the Modern Gregorian calender)

A la Turca was the Muslim calender used as Sephardim lived in the Ottoman Empire. Both a la Turca and a la Grega is not used anymore in the Judaeo-Spanish speaking communities. So if we wanted to name the two other calenders we use, we could call them a la Franca and a la Ebrea.

Lastly, about the calender format in the Hebrew script, using the transcription of the Latin calenders (לוניס 27 גֿולייו 2015 - 11 אב 5775) is more proper than using (יום שני כ"ז בגֿוליו 2015 - י"א באב 5775). I don't know how to change it, so may be you could help me with it :) --Universal Life (discusión) 11:20 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

OK. This is really, really helpful. Let me respond on a couple of things. (You may want to keep a copy of my sandbox open in another tab):
  1. It's easy enough to move the table you created above to the article Kalendario ebreo.
  2. For both the {{Oy}} template and for other purposes, better to use versions of Marheshvan than Heshvan? It's a question I needed to deal with at Latin Wikipedia, where most sources are classical and therefore use Marchesuan. It's also, oddly enough, a question I've dealt with at English Wikipedia, because while Marheshvan is more formally correct, Heshvan is more commonly used in the Anglophone community.
    For the here and now, I'd probably use a version of Heshvan in the {{Oy}} template, Marheshvan in the home page templates, but do something like Marcheshvan (Heshvan) in tables like the one above. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
  3. Related to the previous question: There is now a parser function ({{#time: ...}}) that can return a Hebrew date, given the right parameters. It's easy to go change the outputs of these if we want. So the question is: for months of the year (Gregorian and Hebrew) and days of the week, what values should the server return in this wiki? (It would probably return the same in other lad projects, I'll add.)
    • The current values are the ones returned here in my sandbox. Do you think that I should replace these with the OU versions in the table above? The AY versions? Something else? It's also possible to make them come out like Marḥeshván/מרחשון, which is what the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia does with Latin and Cyrillic.
  4. For the home pages:
    • Right now, the AY version of the page uses a completely AY transcription for dates, based on an AY calendar I found on line. The other three Latin-script transcriptions use what the server returns, which I gather was based on OU. Can you create a list of names of days of the week and months of the year (both calendars) for OF and OT? If so, I can easily make those versions of the home page look correct.
    • For Hebrew script, see here in sandbox for how I thought to transcribe days of the week into Hebrew. But I couldn't find a confirming source, so I left them in pure Hebrew for now. If you tell me those are correct, I'll go ahead and change those. For months, based on an AY calendar I found, I used as follows: {{#switch:{{#time:n}}|1=אינירו|2=פֿיבֿרירו|3=מארסו|4=אבֿריל|5=מאייו|6=גֿוניו|7=גֿוליו|8=אוגוסטו|9=סיפּטימברי|10=אוקטוברי|11=נובֿימברי|12=דיסימברי}}. Again, don't worry about the template markup; just let me know that the month names are ok and I will fix.
  5. I'd guess that a la Grega was probably the Julian calendar, BTW. StevenJ81 (discusión) 14:24 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Articles written with Hebrew characters[trocar | editar código]

The original orthography for printed Judaeo-Spanish (JS) has always been the Rashi script. All newspapers and books were printed in this version of Hebrew letters until late 19th century. Usage of square Hebrew letters (called Merubbá') was reserved to titles (of books, chapters etc.) only. Today most users of Merubbá' for an entire text of JS, are descendents of Sephardim living in modern Israel. Many also know the original Rashi version of the Hebrew alphabet. Me and MaorX, we have been wanting a long time to use Rashi in the Ladino WP. However, as Rashi doesn't have its own set of chacters in the Unicode, and is only one of the fonts of Hebrew Unicode it becomes very difficult to implement this task. Perhaps, if the font for the Hebrew articles is set to Rashi, then all readers could read Hebrew-charactered articles in the Rashi script. I don't know how to do this.

Secondly, I cordially want to thank and congratulate you for performing the huge task of right-justifying all Hebrew-script pages, dealing with tabs and categories on a number of repeating pages!! :))) (And I appreciate much the interlanguage links as well;) )

And lastly, could you explain me subst:-able templates that you created and their usages. Thanks --Universal Life (discusión) 11:59 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Rashi script. Let me throw out a couple of questions.
  1. Is there an open source Rashi script font out there? If not, just forget this entirely, because using a non-open-source font on this project (as a default font) won't be allowed.
    If so, tell me what it is, and we can try a test on a Hebrew-script page or two to see if it works. (Part of the issue with this, though, is that one's browser would have to be set to allow the page to provide its own fonts. Most people's browsers work that way by default, but if your browser isn't set that way, it will always fill in its own default Hebrew fonts, and you'll never see if the test works.) But: you don't want a situation where this depends entirely on browser-side fonts, where if people don't have the right font installed they'll see nothing but boxes. That wouldn't be a good thing.
    There may be some more involved approaches using code pages, but I don't know that stuff so well myself.
    Inserted at 20:20 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)
    I found an open-source Rashi font at opensiddur.org. However, in order for this to work optimally here, we would need that font to be served from our project server. How we get that done, whether or not we can get that done, etc., is far beyond what I know. I have a list of things I want to do here that I'm compiling in my sandbox, and I'll add that. But I'm not sure whom to ask. Do you have any idea? (And this doesn't take away my question in the next paragraph.) StevenJ81 (discusión) 20:20 27 Jul 2015 (UTC) (end insertion)
  2. However: think again about whether using Rashi script as default here is really the best choice for this project. I fully appreciate that Rashi script is the traditional one to use, and fluent speakers of JS will know how to read it. But JS speakers do know how to read meruba fonts, and keeping the default font as a meruba font could make the project that much more accessible to that many more people. (And see above: if most strangers will see nothing but empty boxes because they don't have the right fonts installed, you don't want that as a default.) I think you and Maor X need to decide that; I'll help you as I can.
Right-justifying: Glad to help. (;-)
Templates: Here's how the subst:-able templates work. They're just shortcuts for things that would need to be done on many pages:
  • {{subst:TabsL|Name|שם}} is used on the Latin-script page and puts the following on the page:

{{arriva}}
{{P1|Name}}
{{P2|שם}}
{{abaxo}}

  • {{subst:TabsH|Name|שם}} is used on the Hebrew-script page and puts the following on the page:

{{arriva}}
{{P2|Name}}
{{P1|שם}}
{{abaxo}}

  • The versions {{TabsLXK}} and {{TabsHXK}} are used on template and category pages in a similar way.
  • {{subst:RTL top}} on a Hebrew-script page creates an html <div> with right-to-left text, right-justified, with a fixed right margin. {{subst:RTL bottom}} just closes that <div>. {{subst:RTL TOC}} tries to add in a properly-aligned table of contents in articles long enough to need one. I couldn't get the TOC to entirely right-justify, but the resulting TOC is at least neat and in the right place. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:07 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Adminship and tools[trocar | editar código]

First of all, I think that the Ladino WP is very happy to have you as an admin. You've been helping a lot. You're helping to develop the WP. Therefore I don't see any objection of you being an administrator for now. I think that the issue of permanent or temporary is not very important neither. So please don't feel any pressure on stepping down. And about Judaeo-Spanish, I could help you learn it, if you would like :) --Universal Life (discusión) 12:10 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

The only issue to temporary vs. permanent is that for temporary I have to post a notice here every three months, and then go to the stewards at Meta-Wiki and get them to renew my tools. So if you are inviting me to become permanent, then I'd ask you to go to Vikipedya:Kandidaturas a Administrador and nominate me to be a permanent Administrator (and, I guess, Bureaucrat, since that seems to be the way things work on this wiki). This nomination would have to run seven days, I guess, and as long as we don't get objections, then I would become permanent.
I would never be comfortable writing a nomination for myself for permanent status, since I can't write in JS. But you could do that, and you could say in the nomination that I'm helping and improving the wiki, so you would support me even though I don't speak JS. (And yes, I'd love to learn it, but that's a discussion for another time.:) ) StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:13 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Wikidata / Bidi buttons?[trocar | editar código]

I'm sorry but I couldn't understand these very much:

  • I am told that we get arbitrary access from Wikidata on July 29 August 3. Someone over there has told me how to get the wikidata-driven iw links onto the Hebrew-script pages, even where the Latin-script page is the one in wikidata. So after July 29 August 3 I'll work on that.
  • Do you have any idea whom I ought to talk to about having the bidi buttons added to the editing boxes here? See yiwiki, which I think invented them, or Wikidata or Meta, where they are currently in use. These would be massively useful here, and might well make it easier for people to write Hebrew-script articles.

What are bidi buttons? What's yiwiki? --Universal Life (discusión) 12:16 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Oh, did you mean yi.wikipedia, the Yiddish Wikipedia? --Universal Life (discusión) 12:18 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)
  1. The way Wikidata works, only one article from each wiki can be connected directly to each data item. So, for example, the Wikidata item for Spain (d:Q29) connects only to lad:Espanya, but not to lad:איספאנײה. In turn, lad:Espanya shows the whole range of interwiki links included from the Wikidata item, but lad:איספאנײה only shows whatever interwiki links are incorporated manually. What this arbitrary access thing would do (I hope) is allow us to easily incorporate the entire list of interwiki links even on lad:איספאנײה. It doesn't change things in the other direction, but that's not as important. If you click on the "Ladino" iw link from anywhere else, you'd still get only to lad:Espanya directly, but then we have a tab at the top of that page to get you to lad:איספאנײה pretty easily. But this way, if you were sitting on lad:איספאנײה, you'd have the whole list of iwlinks right there.
  2. There is a gadget on Yiddish Wikipedia called (in English) "Directional editing control script (authors Brion and Splarka)".‎ Turn that gadget on. Then go to any page on Yiddish Wikipedia and edit it. You'll get buttons at the top controlling whether the editing box is ltr or rtl. I've found that really useful for doing template work. For a wiki like this, where there are both ltr pages and rtl pages, it would be incredibly helpful to have this. StevenJ81 (discusión) 16:24 27 Jul 2015 (UTC)