Messaje de Usador:Deborahjay

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Buenos Dias, Deborahjay![trocar el manadero]

Venidas buenas i claras a la Vikipedya Judeo-Española!

Na! Aquí son unos linkes para ayudárte:

De muevo, buenas venidas a la Vikipedya Judeo-Española!

StevenJ81 (discusión) • 2 Elul 5777 • 12:41 24 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Categories[trocar el manadero]

I'm delighted to have you here, Deborahjay. Please feel welcome. I know you're an experienced Wikipedian in general, but don't be afraid to ask questions about our particular idiosyncrasies.

Do keep in mind that (notwithstanding some editors' enthusiasm on the subject) we do not need to have a lot of complicated, multi-level categorization here, since it is a small project. So, for example, I might not have created Category:Roza Eskenazi, particularly if there were not three articles to go into it. Informally, I have been following the guideline of Simple English Wikipedia on this subject (see simple:WP:Categories), and sometimes we don't even need to have categorization even as robust as that. I won't second-guess you, but just consider that here, sometimes less is more. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 2 Elul 5777 • 13:47 24 Ago 2017 (UTC)

StevenJ81, thank you for the warm welcome. An explanation: Recently I initiated some organizational work on a small WP (<1K articles) without an administrator and lacking active experienced editors, in a language I don't know at all (!). Then in a collegial conversation, I was asked whether on my Wiki-break from HE WP I'd be working in "a Jewish language." YI WP is a non-contender for some objective reasons, so I thought to reconsider LAD WP. My self-assessment of proficiency level is ES-2 (for writing; ES-3 for reading) and LAD-0, having no personal history with it. This took some "thinking-outside-the-Babel-box!" Being a professional proofreader and skilled typist, discriminating how LAD differs from ES is already helping me perform edits. Recent work in the Zulu WP reveals how my wiki-toolkit equips me for useful activity, e.g. in Wikidata, DEFAULTSORT for alphabetization (as I know naming conventions in many languages), and the Special pages (these latter I only discovered two days ago and how I do enjoy making those red links disappear!). All this suits me well: I rarely create pages or add content (other than cites with web links to digital media articles), I'm more of a polyglot journeyman. And as I'm recently retired, have no grandchildren and do only a little freelance translating, I have the time and need intellectual stimulation and a global sense of purpose! :-D
Your comments regarding categories are well-taken as guidance. I do appreciate the value of consistency in the collaborative work of WP, so I'll undo the intermediate-level categorization I recently created and learn the existing structure. On the other hand, I'm up for creating categories mimicking existing ones, e.g. Katēggoría:Mujeres de la Gresia based on Katēggoría:Mujeres de la Turkiya. Further: when making interwiki connections via Wikidata - and this speaks to my background as a Holocaust museum archivist - I discriminate when there's a choice between supercategories, e.g. w:Category:Turkish women and w:Category:Women in Turkey. I'll be sure to consult with you on these matters for the good of LAD WP.
And my further queries on new topics, I'll post to your Talk page at La Kavané (redacted per later suggestion). See you there! -- Cheers, Deborahjay (discusión) 14:33 24 Ago 2017 (UTC)
Outstanding. We're glad to have you helping with this. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 2 Elul 5777 • 14:48 24 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Orthographies in LAD WP[trocar el manadero]

(Retitled, continued from Categories, above)
One other thing to keep in mind: We support four different orthographic conventions for Judeo-Spanish written in the Latin alphabet (or maybe five, depending on how you count). We also support Judeo-Spanish written in alef-bet, which is (of course) the original. There are pages with multiple versions, though not many. I have tried to consolidate parallel categories, but I know I haven't gotten them all. (See Category:Paizes in AY orthography, Category:Payizes in OT orthography, and Category:פאאיסיס.) In theory, my preference is to narrow such down to two categories, a lad-latn and a lad-hebr, with the lad-hebr a subcategory of the lad-latn. But in this particular case, there are parallel pages in the parallel categories, and so I haven't yet decided if I think it's better to keep the two lad-latn categories separate or to combine them. In short, a balagan.

You don't have to fuss with that; I'm sure there is plenty to do in spaces where such parallelism isn't happening. But do be a little mindful that you may see a bunch of different spellings running around, and they may all be correct. Also ... stay away from pure geography categories for the moment. We've got some cleanup going on, and it would be better if you let that run its course before you dive into that. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 2 Elul 5777 • 14:48 24 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the head's-up on the orthographies, which I'd superficially encountered earlier today, and as you say - that's enough for my present need-to-know. I only began studying Hebrew in 1975, my last year at UCLA, at age 22, so cognitively I'm far swifter with Latin alphabet languages, even ones in which I can only "word-call." Please know that I work a spontaneous combination of methodically/intuitively but attempt to maintain consistency in the results. At this point I do want to know:
  • Is there a plan for consolidating latin-alphabet terminology, e.g. "Hojas especiales" vs. "Especial:HojasEspesyales" - where we have "Hojas", "Pajinas", and "Páginas" ! I can flex with this, but it necessarily slows down my pick-up of Ladino.
  • For Edit summaries (which I do use) and article/Category Talk pages - should I make an attempt to write in LAD/ES as best I can, or stick with English? What's the community practice?
  • Issues with pages and Categories I'll write on their respective Talk pages, but would like to alert other LAD WP editors/Admins. How do you suggest I do this? (Some one of you might agree to periodically check my page "Donos del Usador"?)
Thanks again, -- Deborahjay (discusión) 15:07 24 Ago 2017 (UTC)
Good questions, all. I've also suggested to the other admins (we have a Telegram group we use) that they come check out your question. User:Universal Life, especially, is the one who is fluent in JS and far more expert in it than any of the rest of us. And between his language skills and his long tenure here, there are answers that he is the best-suited to answer. Here's a quick rundown:
  • For the most part, major differences (e.g., versions of "hoja" vs. versions of "pajina") tend to come from the question of what infrastructure messages have actually been translated into Judeo-Spanish and which have not. Spanish is the fallback language for this wiki, so most messages not translated into lad appear in es instead. But we're sensitive to wanting all lad translations to be in good Judeo-Spanish, so I'd prefer to let Universal Life decide if he'd like you to tackle
I'd add: In earlier times, before I got here, Universal Life, and others, were stronger in JS as a spoken language than as a written language. We've all learned a lot over time. But you're still sometimes seeing past well-intended mistakes around here.
  • We also frequently get contributors here who are well-meaning, but who assume that if they write in modern Castilian and then change some letters, they have Judeo-Spanish. So sometimes you're just seeing that. If you start to pick up some LAD, and then see something that looks more like ES than LAD, it probably is.
  • The community had been missing for a while recently, and only in the past couple of months has really started to come back and get involved again. It's not clear there is a strong "community practice". I'd venture that on net, you're probably best off using Spanish in edit summaries and on talk pages. If you want to make the point that you are in fact writing ES and not LAD, preface with {{Espflag}}. If you're writing me only, use English; my Spanish fluency comes entirely from Google. (smile)
  • For issues with individual pages and categories, by all means use their talk pages. For policy issues, including category mergers (unless there is a one-off reason for one), it's best to try to write on Vikipedya:La Kavané, which we all follow (I hope). Ping me, Universal Life and Katxis at a minimum. And I do follow Recent Changes, so I'll keep an eye for a while. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 3 Elul 5777 • 22:18 24 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Venida buena y clara (Welcome)[trocar el manadero]

Hi Deborah,
I wanted to welcome you as well. I have been busy a bit lately in real life and couldn't be here much, so couldn't write this earlier. It's really very nice to have you here :)
About the question that you asked to Steven (Hojas, Pajinas, Páginas), what he said is quite correct. Also the categories are very disorganised unfortunately and the translations are incomplete. I intend to go back translating there as soon as I find some more time.
Any questions that you have, please don't hesitate to write to me or ping me. :)
And again welcome, hosh geldín y barujhabá :) --Universal Life (discusión) 21:32 29 Ago 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, @Universal Life:, for your personal welcome :-D
From my initial explorations in the LAD WP during this past week, I sense that at its present stage, my activity will complement the existing team of active contributors due to my skills-set and interests. I have a good wiki-toolkit for a non-techie. I'm a professional proofreader and a fast and accurate typist, and I enjoy making order at the level of Categories, including DEFAULTSORT and expanding Wikidate items (labels, aliases, descriptions). (This follows in the virtual footsteps of @StevenJ81:.) I use GoogleTranslate judiciously; an indispensible tool when working in the ZU WP - a small WP I've undertaken to improve without knowing a word of the language (! - though during a month's contributing I'm gaining familiarity). I recently upgraded my Babel box level from LAD-0 to LAD-1 because I can read based on my decades-dormant ES-2 (ES-3 for reading). About working with Judeo-Espanyola, I'll soon post my orientation queries in La Kavané because I hope they - and the responses - will be of interest to other potential new contributors.
-- Saludos, y a vermos, Deborahjay (discusión) 08:32 30 Ago 2017 (UTC)

The Barnstar of Diligence[trocar el manadero]

Barnstar of Diligence Hires.png The Barnstar of Diligence
With thanks for all of your tireless work in helping us straighten out categories, sort keys, and all of those other small things that just make everything work better. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:12 7 Set 2017 (UTC)
Gracias, @StevenJ81:, for the recognition! I'm gratified to make improvements in these neglected areas, making use of my knowledge and skills even before I tackle the language. -- Cheers, Deborahjay (discusión) 12:45 10 Set 2017 (UTC)

Enderechamientos[trocar el manadero]

Shalom, en la variante Aki Yerushalayim, no se diz Isola, el bievo enderechado es Izla o Ada.--Marrovi (discusión) 23:48 24 Set 2017 (UTC)

Grasias, @Marrovi: Ahora quiero averiguar si "izla" es siempre el biervo del uso Aki Yerushalayim y no "isola" - ki vemos en la pajina Izlas Baleares "izla" enel titulo y otra 8 veces, pero "isola" 34 veces. Tambien: "Israel" y no "Yisrael"? -- Deborahjay (discusión) 13:34 25 Set 2017 (UTC)
English language.svg I'd wait to get @Universal Life's opinion on that. Mizrachi pronunciation of that name often has little or none of the semi-vowel /j/ (consonant "y") in front of it, so I'm not sure if it always renders with "y" in lad-latn. (Note also that the normal direct transliteration between lad-latn and lad-hebr orthographies does not apply to words of Hebrew and Aramaic origin, similar to the practice in Yiddish and other Jewish languages.) StevenJ81 (discusión) • 5 Tishri 5778 • 13:47 25 Set 2017 (UTC)
There may be conflicting sources whether orthography depends on transcription that considers phonology and pronunciation variants, and transliteration - literally, based on the [written] letters. Meanwhile, may I rely 100% on the existing page names as they appear in Wikidata (e.g. "Israel")? Wikipedia being a collaborative effort, variants (even typing errors) are unavoidable but nevertheless benefit from correction, which I'm willing to undertake when I encounter irregularities. -- Deborahjay (discusión) 14:07 25 Set 2017 (UTC)
Actually, you can't. Have a look at Israel, and you'll see that several orthographic variants are in use. The Wikidata item calls it "Israel" because that version of the page is linked to the main Wikidata item. Other pages here have to be linked to subsidiary Wikidata items. But all are equally valid.
Concerning sources: I think that most JS starts as an Alef-Bet transliteration of Spanish, Turkish, Portuguese, etc. into lad-hebr, and then our various orthographic variants then reverse that process to transliterate back into lad-latn in different ways. (It really matters. I have an NCSY birkon from Germany, and the transliteration is VERY different from the transliteration in the original, English birkon.)
But even if that's usually true, it's not true of Hebrew (or Aramaic) words. In lad-hebr, those words remain intact, spelled normally, while the lad-latn versions are transcriptions, not just transliterations.
With Hebrew source words, you can safely fix things that appear to be based on pronunciations incorrectly borrowed from Spanish (or other languages) that are utterly inconsistent with the Hebrew spelling. For example, I had to fix a lot of (Yizrael/Izrael) > (Yisrael/Israel) a while back. But where the pronunciation seems reasonable and consistent with Hebrew orthography (dropped leading /j/ or /h/, for example—see Rosh Ashana), don't change it. StevenJ81 (discusión) • 6 Tishri 5778 • 19:58 25 Set 2017 (UTC)

Shalom Deborahjay; en Aki Yerushalayim is Izla, ansina lo embezi en los artikolos publikados; puedo dar ayudo kon biervos o palavras; por eshempio; envez de dizir enderechar enlasos rojos en djudeo-espanyol se puede dizir enderechar atamientos kolorados, ansi es mas djudio. Aki puede oyir komo es el djudeo-espanyol o ladino [1]; yo embezi ladino de meldar los artikolos de Aki Yerushalayim i oyendo a la mi nona o la mi aguela komo avla; ke anke no es ladino 100% dela Turkia, es un ladino ke afinko en Meksiko aze kaji 400 anyos delos muestros ansestros ke fueron kriptodjudios, kon alkunos biervos del Haketia i de otras linguas aborijinalas komo náhuatl i otomí. Aki enjunto todo lavoro en ladino para ke embeze este ermoza lingua; Universal es ken puede avlar ladino de lingua maternala, ansina desde la chikez.--Marrovi (discusión) 14:15 26 Set 2017 (UTC)